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Archived Boards => [Archived] Siralim 3 - Development Discussion => Topic started by: Zack on November 18, 2017, 03:55:50 PM

Title: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Zack on November 18, 2017, 03:55:50 PM
Whether you think a certain spell is underpowered, overpowered, or so boring/weird that it should be changed entirely, please post all about them here, along with any suggestions you have about how they could be improved.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Umaro on November 18, 2017, 08:08:59 PM
Equality is overpowered.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Umaro on November 24, 2017, 11:09:42 AM
My main issue with spells in S2 is that single-target damage spells feel useless when compared to AoE. There are exceptions like Homing Arrow, but who would use Fireball over Volcano (and Firestorm even more so)?
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Zack on November 24, 2017, 11:14:06 AM
AoE won't be as powerful this time. They're now balanced around using them on 6 enemies, whereas they were balanced around using them on only 3 enemies before. And what made them really ridiculous were the auto-casting properties because those didn't cost any mana. You'll run out of mana if you have to cast them manually, and some creatures won't even be able to cast a few of the most powerful ones because they simply don't have enough mana.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Umaro on November 24, 2017, 12:36:53 PM
That sounds great! Still, I think it wasn't just autocasts that made them ridiculous, I think their main advantage over single-target spells is simply the fact that you can damage all enemies at once, since there are so many ways to increase spell damage in the game. But it's not their only advantage: they also ignore Invisible, and since spells never miss like Attack does, they're obviously the best way to do damage in S2.

Also, there are ways to cast them without using Mana, and I'm sure casting an AoE spell 5 times with Multicast+rune, the "casts 1 additional time" property and the Double Take trait would still do the job :P (Actually Familiars can cast up to 6 times :O)

But... I'm not sure how to balance them without making them useless. I mean, you could add a buff that negates only AoE spells, but that would be overpowered in the player's hands.

Still, I wasn't really complaining about AoE spells, just wishing there was a use for the single-target ones :P
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: jamosup on November 24, 2017, 09:58:35 PM
It's less of a change to the spells themselves rather than the situations you use them in, but situations that require more single-target damage in general would bring single target spells into more use. Possibly having smaller enemy packs than 6 with higher levels or minibosses of sorts (like the nemesis bosses from beating a large amount of one species); even against bosses, they generally had enough emphasis on their additional minions that you still wanted to attack everything at once, and bosses of course only appear occasionally. (or never again, in the normal realms past 40 in S2) Still, AoE spells having a heavy cost associated with them is a good plan.

As for other spell changes; Siralim 2 had a large amount of "trinket" spells that had awfully small effects (most spells that applied beneficial statuses to a single target, for example), and were "balanced" by low mana-costs. Even if you spend 0 mana, you still have to take a turn, though, and that's often a lot more important anyway. These spells could be a lot more useful if along with their low mana cost, you were allowed to use one of these "instant" spells and act again normally. (or use an instant spell again, which would then actually consume your turn) Again, this is for those really small effects, pretty much no damaging effect would need this treatment, except maybe one or two spells that have this property to be unique. Abilities that react to spellcasts could also ignore these if the extra casts per turn got out of hand.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: virtua on November 29, 2017, 05:23:59 PM
 they also ignore Invisible, they also remove shell. ect, yes thats important part about AOE.

i think jamosup is right, the way AI is, aoe spells are just way more effective since ai doesnt know how to handle things. but if you ever fight wonder twins on god lvl 10 you will have some extreme difficulty surviving their steel wind aoe and killing both twins at the same time without cheesing them. its all based around AI.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Psylisa on December 01, 2017, 09:37:21 PM
Spells that have a detrimental effect to your own team should be removed or changed. Anger, for instance, is just useless. Double cast it, and the battle is over.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: anokatax on December 02, 2017, 01:46:22 PM
Not necessarily a spell, but related to spells - many spells' descriptions use words like "Splash" or "Burn"

I suggest making the Library/Glossary/Monster Info (for monsters we've captured already) viewable in battle so we can double-check during battles and not have to go into town/memorize it/google it. Its a minor Quality of Life improvement IMO.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: SyneLau on December 03, 2017, 05:13:20 PM
I think the Spell system should use a revamp.  In Siralim 2, spells are front-loaded.  The incentive is to blow through your strongest spells and eliminate the enemy team as quickly as possible.  Because of this, low-cost and single target spells require too much of an opportunity cost for little benefit.  Here is what I propose:


This will increase strategic depth on your spell selection and usage.  This can also add depth to Traits and other effects that are dependent on your mana percentage.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: virtua on December 07, 2017, 05:39:09 PM
yea kinda interesting, like weak spells combo up to 'ultimate' or stronger spells. i kinda like this but would be hard to balance and would need to revamp lots of stuff.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Enzo Matrix on December 11, 2017, 08:23:16 AM
Well.. gotta admit this has been the most OP spell I ever found lol. The issue is I can exploit this during any boss fight making it super easy to win. Doing massive damage to boss type and keep same ability on normal enemies would have been fine.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: virtua on December 11, 2017, 10:46:27 AM
Well.. gotta admit this has been the most OP spell I ever found lol. The issue is I can exploit this during any boss fight making it super easy to win. Doing massive damage to boss type and keep same ability on normal enemies would have been fine.

yea getting a whole team of defend/provoke multicast mutilates is pretty insane
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Aiesha Nazarothi on December 11, 2017, 03:25:24 PM
Exactly what makes this game nice: 1HKO availability is a sign of good RPG system.
Autocast properties gonna be removed in S3, though.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Umaro on January 02, 2018, 06:54:36 PM
Defy Light is probably the most overpowered spell in the game. Death Shield + Unbreakable trait, you only need to cast that spell and you've won.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: virtua on January 03, 2018, 11:35:37 AM
i agree complete immunity should be harder or impossible to achieve
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Aiesha Nazarothi on January 05, 2018, 06:05:10 AM
i agree complete immunity should be harder or impossible to achieve

Sure, but... It's not really flawed spell, trait, their combination or anything.
It's Siralim's disgn fundametal flaw: PvE asymmetry.

Now imagine some mid-boss use such a combo. Defeated player will just be a fool who never predicted neither prepared for immunity strategy. Enemies, on other hand, never learn/adapt/predicts.

They will never guess how to change classes (hint: Morph) or disarm artifacts (hint:Decay) or something.
AI will simply die no matter how obvious counter-tactics is.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: robertleva on January 20, 2018, 12:37:42 PM
The auto casting system in S2 is busted and abusable, BUT it becomes broken around the same time in the game that you can start breaking all the other systems in the game as well. So in a way I though it was somewhat balanced, or at least in line with the other broken / exploitable systems.

Glory is a particularly obnoxious offender. You can cause near infinite loops with this and multicast. After breaking the game apart, I opted to stop using Glory. Sure you can kill anything, but the fights start taking forever when you are fighting monsters that are lvls 2000 - 10,000+.

If auto cast is going away in S3, I think spells in general will end up falling way behind the other ways to break the system.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Aiesha Nazarothi on January 25, 2018, 03:53:57 PM
Quote
If auto cast is going away in S3, I think spells in general will end up falling way behind the other ways to break the system.
Well, let's just assume some things and move forward already: S2 was always a game about breaking the system.
Kind of like Disgaea series with MtG flavour. And it's wonderful. Zack's mutiny against modern trend of "balancing over fun" convinced me twice to buy his games at beta stages.

That being said, I'm also a big fan of choose your punishment mechanics back in S2.
ALSO I like a lot ban system in major TCGs, which forbids certain cards in certain formats.

So why not simply combine both ? Leave it up to player to decide if (s)he want to ban some overpowered combos and spells or not, range by severity. Maybe in exchange for additional resources/exp/unlockables (how about carddrops being possible  only with strict ban mode enabled ?).
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Athetos421 on January 25, 2018, 04:50:36 PM
Or have a special Masochist/Pain mage class. He gets traits that give big boosts to your creatures, but restrict you in some way, for example:
Painful rage
After your creatures are damaged, they gain an amount of Attack = 1/2 Damage dealt. Your creatures cannot gain shield and heal only 5% health with mend.
Etc.

A special unlockable class, something to work for for those hardcore optimizers.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Aiesha Nazarothi on January 26, 2018, 04:01:53 AM
Or both. More options == better.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Chumsie on January 26, 2018, 09:20:00 AM
So... maybe old-timey Haste could make a return, what with the revamped mana-system and whatnot? Maybe make it so that it can't be cast right after another Haste, to avoid abuse?
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: robertleva on January 26, 2018, 12:00:44 PM
Am I the only one that thought the auto cast was in line with the other systems of S2 in terms of power vs. how much effort it takes to assemble a broken team abusing autocast?

It takes a similar amount of effort to "go infinite" by abusing other systems, why are we singling this out again?

How about a compromise with a new class with the following perks:

Your spell gems that apply debuffs have a 0/25 % chance to proc on hit
Your spell gems that apply buffs have a 0/25 % chance to proc when hit

etc etc. make it so all the "Automage"'s class perks are used up unlocking the auto cast mechanics of S2, that seems a fair trade.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: Umaro on January 26, 2018, 12:04:38 PM
Am I the only one that thought the auto cast was in line with the other systems of S2 in terms of power vs. how much effort it takes to assemble a broken team abusing autocast?

It takes a similar amount of effort to "go infinite" by abusing other systems, why are we singling this out again?

How about a compromise with a new class with the following perks:

Your spell gems that apply debuffs have a 0/25 % chance to proc on hit
Your spell gems that apply buffs have a 0/25 % chance to proc when hit

etc etc. make it so all the "Automage"'s class perks are used up unlocking the auto cast mechanics of S2, that seems a fair trade.

The main problem was with the "cast at the start of battle" spells, to be honest.
Title: Re: Post about the spells you think should be changed here.
Post by: robertleva on January 26, 2018, 12:25:34 PM
I get that but we have tons of ways to limit cast on start without just trashing it completely.

Limit it to mage class perks like I said. You can further limit it to certain creature classes, or limit the kind spell gems that can be cast at the start.

Ideally I would like to see the auto cast remain, but be more difficult to break.