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Post about the traits you think should be changed here.  (Read 1746 times)

Offline Chumsie

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #16 December 30, 2017, 05:10:30 PM
I've got nothing major to add other than a firm advocacy in favor of tuning down numbers all across the board, in order to slow down the pace of combat so it won't end up as another 1-round palooza, followed by a small plea to not have all members necessarily follow the trait-theme of that particular family, it feels constricting and limits both player and developer options. If I, for some obscene reason, want to bring a carnage I don't want to have to go with the same one 99% of the time and if I want to build, say, a Freeze team, then I'd love to have more options than yeties, a single angel and a single aspect.

Oh, and I've always felt that harpies would work brilliantly as a pro-blind family and wyverns as a pro-confusion one. Just saying.

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #15 December 20, 2017, 10:03:22 AM
Also, Lost Vulpes has the same trait as Spirit Vulpes, just much worse  :o

Is this a bug? Because the description describes two different effects: the Spirit Vulpes has a chance to fire its own spell gems at the start, the Lost Vulpes has a chance to fire everyone's spells at a much lower proc rate.

I agree that stacking traits should generally be rare or nonexistent (see comment on Planetary Amaranth.)

Yeah, I had misread their trait descriptions. Sorry about that!

Offline DragOhNite

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #14 December 20, 2017, 12:14:29 AM
I feel like most of the traits that rely on a specific creature being attacked are too unreliable. The enemy usually has a lot of options, and for them to attack one of my six creatures requires either a lot of work on my part, or for them to take a sometimes very unlikely action. Provoke and a few other mechanics help with this, but I don't think it's enough to make having specific creatures being attacked a dependable strategy most of the time.

I looked through the bestiary and made a list of creatures that have a trait reliant on being attacked: Enclave Amaranth, Goliath Arachnalisk, Ashwood Ent, Magma Golem, Medusa, Dread Spectre, Minotaur Earthshaker, Minotaur Warrior, Siren Beguiler, Siren Coercer, Disease Crafter, Frostbite Yeti.

This also includes most of the slimes.

The list is probably incomplete, and I ignored Gold Golem and a few others that weren't quite as specific in terms of activation, but hey.

Some of the traits are quite powerful, and are probably fine. But there are similar, more interactive/reliable ways to activate some or all of these, such as:

"After this creature takes damage" - Blood Slime

"When your creatures are attacked" - Unguided Amaranth

"When this creature attacks or is attacked" - Wolpertingers

Some numbers would need changing depending depending on the ease of activation, but these changes would make those creatures feel a lot more rewarding to use.


Wyverns are so specific that I think they could be a good bit more powerful without being a problem. They (and dragons) also suffer from the same problem as the above monsters, in that their effects are mostly reactionary. Effects that depend on the opponent's decisions usually aren't rewarding to use in my experience.

Reapers would feel better if there were more reliable ways to leave an enemy at low health.

Clutchers would be awesome if there was a super reliable way to make the enemy dodge attacks.

Dragons are very specific like wyverns, but don't have much power either. I think either making their effects more powerful or more proactive would do them some good.

Plague Doctors also have a couple of creatures that have niche reactionary traits that I think could use more interactivity.

Also, in my opinion, Harpy Pillager does about as close to nothing as you can get.  :)





Offline geepope

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #13 December 19, 2017, 04:40:18 PM
Also, Lost Vulpes has the same trait as Spirit Vulpes, just much worse  :o

Is this a bug? Because the description describes two different effects: the Spirit Vulpes has a chance to fire its own spell gems at the start, the Lost Vulpes has a chance to fire everyone's spells at a much lower proc rate.

I agree that stacking traits should generally be rare or nonexistent (see comment on Planetary Amaranth.)

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #12 December 18, 2017, 07:30:50 PM
Also, Lost Vulpes has the same trait as Spirit Vulpes, just much worse  :o

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #11 December 18, 2017, 06:42:12 PM
Griffon traits shouldn't stack. Particularly Razorfoot, which gives a 1600% just for having 6 of them in the party, and it can be pushed to 3400% with the trait that gives a +2 bonus to race-specific traits.

In fact, I'd make it a global rule that no trait stacks.

Offline Athetos421

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #10 December 09, 2017, 05:08:38 PM
I whould rather adore the return of some of the traits found in Siralim 1. They felt a lot less niche, and minmaxing than the traits of Siralim 2.

Made every creature more unique, every creature worth taking, and not just "meh, they arent any good for my build, they're breeding fodder".

I liked the S1 creatures more because they worked better in a mixed group, not like the S2 creatures, which reqiered one focus, and one crazy build.

Offline Athetos421

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #9 December 08, 2017, 10:04:35 AM
I agree with mist of the statements of the first post, but i felt like there weren't any really good on-kill effects.

The carnages were nice in that perspective, but they really needed serious prep. before they were any good, and nearly not near the creatures good for "that perfect team".

I think they need some sort of better way to get kills, like:
"This creature automaticly kills allies...[Whatever the carnage's original trait was]"

As you see, i want to have more creatures that get that "kill half your team by your own hand to become nigh undefeatable" idea the death mage inspires. In short, i think there should be more death creatures focused on that trait-wise.

It was already implemented in gem form, but didn't have any spesific creature it vibed with.

Another cool idea whould be to make summoned creatures not leave any corpse when killed. Because at most, you could summon 5 random creatures, which could even potentialy hinder or kill you
 I think they should have that expendability feel that they have in other games.

Oh, and the Pit Wraith line is weird and unstable, could you make them more versatili like the cerberuses or deities?

Just some random thoughts.

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #8 December 07, 2017, 08:51:49 PM
I think it's impossible to completely prevent that, but S2 made it way too easy. Hopefully with S3's changes (more level-and-stat-based, trait adjustments, no running from battles, no exponential buffs, percentage-based artifacts, etc.) it will at least improve things a bit.

Offline Noetherian

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #7 December 07, 2017, 08:45:33 PM
Thanks Umaro, great post.

In fact, it got me thinking, is it possible for Siralim 3 to balanced so as to avoid the one-shot-y-ness of Siralim 1 and 2 without making drastic changes to the core mechanics?

There are a lot of traits (in both games) which could be a lot cooler if everything was less one-shot-y ... but maybe that is just a natural consequence of the core mechanics we all know and love? (For example, maybe if you are going to make an infinite depth, infinite progression RPG with straightforward battle mechanics, then you naturally end up with one-shot-y fights)

Offline virtua

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #6 December 07, 2017, 05:43:59 PM
yea i really wanted yeti's to be good and all that 'work' you do to be worth it, but it isnt.

Offline geepope

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #5 December 04, 2017, 05:47:49 PM
Umaro's list is excellent, singling out a few in particular:

Amaranths are mostly really good verging on just almost too good, but the Planetary Amaranth's stacking defense bonus might be a bit much.

Arachnalisks are good in concept but there's a lot of overlap (inflict snare to a single enemy vs. inflict poison to all enemies + inflict snare whenever an enemy is poisoned.) It would be nice to have some more diversity, especially if Regalis's Brothel trait or anything resembling it is going to be included.

Aspects suffer badly from having a mismatch between their stats and their designated role as dodge tanks. Most of their abilities are ok in theory, but the Springtime Aspect is just thoroughly awful.

I think bats are mostly ok but the Crypt Bat is basically a weaker version of the Brim Smith in most respects, although the artifact rework may take care of that. The Vampire Bat is also pretty bad--it's a very squishy monster and will spend most of its time either at full HP or dead, so a healing power is a bit out of place.

The Brownie Trickster is pretty bad. Confusion just is not all that reliable.

Carnages are really good and fun. The Carnage Tormentor is awfully niche because it requires way more setup than other Carnages but a case could be made that it's ok.

Wicked Carver is bad, bad, bad. You can build around "randomly attacks friends or foes" or "randomly attacks or heals the party" but you can't build around "randomly has a good attack or a bad attack." (Even then, the Demented Carver is a bit suspect. I think if it's going to unreliably do 1 of 2 actions with its attack they should be really good actions.)

Centaurs are incredibly powerful. They probably should not generate so many full power attacks.

Cerberus Banelord is going to need a rework if spell triggers are going away; the existence of a handful of spells with built-in triggers is probably not enough to justify their ability. Ditto Lightning Cerberus. Caustic Cerberus seems a bit weak compared to the dedicated stat-boost-from-gems creatures such as Imp Necromancer, etc.; literally the only use for Caustic Cerberus in a party with any optimization is if you already have the relevant stat boost ability and want to stack the cerberus on top of it. For starters, I feel that the Caustic Cerberus (and possibly a few others) would benefit from the +3 spell bonus of the Ashmouth Cerberus.

Most of the Clutchers are bad. Necrotic Clutcher can be semi-useful since, at a minimum, it replaces a missed attack with an equivalent amount of attack damage, and can be optimized for on-hit triggers to make dodges even desirable. Simply sticking a debuff or a relatively lame stat modifier in place of a missed attack is a pretty poor substitute in comparison.

Blood Crusader feels a little mediocre. Given a choice between an Ebony Ent (mend for the whole party) or Blood Crusader (mend + leech for just one creature) I think the Ent wins every time.

Dragons are a little mis-statted, they feel like they could use some more health. They're only really useful in drawn out battles but they're not all that durable.

Dryad Keeper and Dryad Naturalist are pretty awful. Generally extending buffs is not a huge concern (and even when it is, simply re-casting the buff is basically good enough most of the time.) Dryad Raincaller is also pretty bad: why do I want to spend time setting up a bunch of buffs and spend my action every round instead of just bringing a Royal Golem to get 2.5 buffs worth of healing for free?

As Umaro noted Ents are generally very bad. Hemlock Ent by itself is much worse than Ebony Ent. It combos nicely with Ebony Ent, but again, you could just take a Royal Golem and get almost as much healing every turn without having to waste a turn defending. Timeworn Ent has a cool concept but the fractional gain is way too small.

I know it's a starter monster but Berserker Fiend is very bad. There are creatures that perma-buff the whole party or perma-buff themselves with multiple buffs, and Berserk is not so great a buff to make one singlet-target perma-buff useful in comparison. It should get some sort of additional effect to make it more useful in the long run. Similarly Destroyer Fiend needs to spend an action to buff the team when other monsters perma-buff the team automatically; I know it's handy to be able to toggle your berserk status, but that actually seems less on-theme than simply having it perma-berserk the party. Even if you really wanted to keep it a toggle, it deserves to get something extra for spending an action on it.

Will post more thoughts later as I have time.

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #4 November 24, 2017, 10:28:00 AM
I didn't mention it in my big post, but Wreck from Tower Giant is really easy to break with all the ways there are to increase HP. Not really a broken trait on its own, it's just that it's really easy to optimize it to ridiculous levels.

Offline Zack

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #3 November 18, 2017, 08:12:14 PM
Wow, awesome! Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out! That's definitely going to be helpful.
Designer and Programmer of Siralim and The Negative. Follow us on: Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Offline Umaro

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Re: Post about the traits you think should be changed here.
Reply #2 November 18, 2017, 08:01:10 PM
Ok, this is my opinion, color-coded for your convenience. Green = ok or needs nerf. Yellow = would be ok with a little buff. Red = terrible.

I'll go race by race so I don't miss anything (not including the ones you're going to revamp):


Amaranths are one of the best families in my opinion, and they can stay the same.

Angels are... okay, but Spells > Attack in S2, so they didn't see much use. I don't really want to change them, but I'd like some more Attack-Spell balance. Also, Imperial Angel and maybe Soulslayer could use the 75% Attack boost.

Apis are good in general. I'd buff Apis Protector's trait a bit.

Apocalypses are okay, no problems here.

Arachnalisks are okay, no problems here.

Aspects could definitely use some buffs. Autumn is much better than the rest of them.

Asuras have the same problem as Angels, but even worse.

Banshees are one the best races. Eldritch Strike probably needs a nerf or a cap.

Basilisks are fun.

Bat traits would be fine if their percentages were increased. As it is, most of them are too weak to consider.

Brownies are okay, but I'd buff the Brownie Captain.

Carnages are good.

Most Carvers are too unreliable, so I'd buff them a bit.

Centaurs are good.

Cerberuses are one of the best races, so no problems here.

Clutchers... I love the concept, but same problem as Angels and Asuras.

Crusaders are good.

Demigods are okay, could probably use a little buff since they're supposed to be powerful.

Devils... aren't really creatures you'd normally use, but I like how specialized they are, so I wouldn't change their theme. Krampus definitely needs an overhaul... I suggest "Your creatures with Devil traits can equip the appropiate Scourge spell". So Twisted Devil could equip Scourge Sorcery, for example.

Diabolic Horde is good.

Djinns are good. Alleviation could use a nerf or a cap.

Doom Fortresses are okay, but they suffer from the bug that makes Speed from traits not affect turn order. Would it be too powerful if at least the Itherian one had "This creature provokes at the start of battle"?

Dragons are too situational in general. Better as enemies than allies. They could use a buff.

Dryads are... boring? Some of them are useful, but I'd never use most of them.

Dumpling is love.

Efreets are fine. Infinite Inferno makes Heat Wave do 0 extra damage, I'm pretty sure.

Elfs are good.

Ents are very weak, Ebony notwithstanding. They need a buff.

Familiars are great.

Fiends are okay, some could use a buff.

Forsakens are okay in concept, but in practice they're only used to break the game with things like 200% Mana and 1-turn-win teams. I guess they can stay the same, though.

Gargantuans are too weak in general, maybe just boost their percentages.

Gargoyles are okay.

Ghouls are okay.

Giants are good.

Golems are fine.

Gorgons are okay, I guess. It's too risky to rely on Stun.

Griffons are good.

Harpies are better as enemies than allies, but overall decent creatures.

Hounds are really good. Thylacine + Lone Wolf is kind of broken.

Hunters are okay, but Endurance Aura neuters them.

Imlers and Imlings need a revamp in my opinion, I much prefered the S1 versions.

Imps are okay.

Lepers would be okay if the nether boss trait that makes them share traits wasn't bugged, but they could still use a buff.

Liches are okay. Hail to the King is crazy, though.

Manticores are okay, if only Attack was more useful...

Masochist traits would be extremely dangerous in Leper artifacts if the Leper-sharing trait worked correctly.

Minotaurs don't really work in practice since everything's a oneshot.

Mites are okay.

Mummies aren't that good since Curse is one of the weakest/less common debuffs.

The Silence/Scorn Nixes are kind of overpowered. You'll have to change the autocast ones.

Occultists need a buff. Strength of the Mind is the best trait, but unnecessary when you can add the one immunity you need to the artifact.

Ophans are good. Geylian has gamebreaking potential.

Paragons... yeah.

Phase Warriors are good. Endurance Aura is a trait I would consider weakening or removing.

Phoenixes are maybe too situational, but not bad.

Pilwiz are fine.

Pit Worms are fine. Wouldn't mind seeing some higher percentages in some of them.

Pit Wraiths are weird...

Plague Doctors aren't good.

Ravens are good. Swiftcasting though... I think traits like this should be removed.

Reapers are like Minotaurs. Everything's a oneshot, so they don't work.

Revenants really need a buff (most of them).

Rift Dancers are good.

Salamanders are good.

Sanctus. Let's see... Chastity is a nightmare and Diligence is the number 1 must-have trait in S2. Just letting you know.

Seraphs are okay.

Shades are okay, but Pariah is overpowered, and if it's removed, Shades stop being okay.

Sins are good.

Sirens need a buff, I'd say. Soothsayer, though, is too powerful as an enemy.

Skeletons need a little buff. Note that Canonneer is a worse version of Thrasher Fiend.

Slimes are too weird and need a complete revamp in my opinion.

Smiths are fine. War Forged is really powerful.

Smogs are fine. Note that Transfusion and Malady don't work well together.

Spectres are great debuffers. Wouldn't mind seeing some higher percentages here and there.

Sphinxes are must-haves for monocolor teams.

Spirits are really good for Life Mages. Abnegation is overpowered.

Stags need a revamp with the removal of autocasts.

Storms are good.

Tremors are better as enemies, but not bad.

Trolls are okay, but I'd like a little buff.

Unicorns are too random, but overall helpful.

Valkyries could use a buff.

Vortices need a buff, they're much better as enemies. Stifle is really powerful, though.

Vulpes will be great if they're the only source of autocasts.

Waspids are okay.

Watchers are okay, but maybe give some of them a buff.

Wights are good.

Wyverns need higher percentages in my opinion.

Yetis are the worst race, period.

Avatars aren't all equally powerful, so I'd buff some of them.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 08:06:06 PM by Umaro »