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Creature level caps destroying the story / game  (Read 1508 times)

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #18 May 28, 2018, 09:45:47 AM
Please be patient.  Erebyss's buff will become toggleable soon (today I believe) and you'll be able to disable heredity when new game plus is implemented.
If you have to disable a feature via NG+, the feature wasn't implemented correctly in the first place.

I enjoy breeding, and I like the idea of the heredity system - I just loathe the implementation. When you start getting into the N4 (lv 200+) creatures, it simply takes too long to have to breed creatures for a generation just to increase caps so you can breed creatures to increase caps so you can breed them to finally increase caps on your main team you actually want to use.

Breeding should have been left entirely to new creature discovery/use only rather than stat (S2) / level cap (S3) increases.

My suggestion (and it's a large redesign):
1) Remove the ability to extract cores from anything but the starter creatures unless the player has unlocked the creature via breeding already.
2) Randomize creature breeding per game. So one games' recipes will not be the same as another's games'.

This does two things - it promotes discovery of the breeding recipes with creature experimentation, and forces the player to use the system in the game for actually making new creatures.
In S2 for example, I didn't really use the system much because I could easily look up and find how to make the creatures I wanted to make.
In S3, there's so many breeding recipes that result in the same creature that I'm finding myself rarely bothering to breed anything for a new creature. Resources are tight, and I can just go up a few floors and new enemies will appear that I can extract from. I feel that S3 is a real let-down here. I feel forced to expend massive resources to expand level caps - not for adding new and interesting creatures to my stables. And adding new and interesting creatures should be what breeding is about, no?

I agree only half here. I agree that I feel forced to use massive resources to increase the level cap

However, breeding is a cool mechanic but Siralim isn't Monster Quest or Pokemon, in Siralim 2 you could always finish the game without breeding.
For me that game is more about freedom of using multiple strategies for reaching your goal. The more demanding the player is, the more in depth the game becomes - it is fanatstic.

I dont' want to feel forced to breed. If the Cores are limited only to the starting creatures, we may have the same problem:
- you also need the train these creatures and now you cannot easily extract a core anymore and you need the time for breeding
- for the increased amount of breeding you still need massive ressources

Please do not forget: All issues we mentioned here lead to the level cap.

I really like the new core extraction and heredity system. My new suggestion is, let everything as it is and maybe just loosen the formula so that we get a little more heredity.
And maybe the more we breed the more experience the breeding master gets the less ressources it costs (capped of course).
The same could got for summoning creatures: The more I summon as specific creature the less it costs.

This way everything would be faster, and everyone can play as they want to. And well, a bit grinding is part of Siralims charm  ;D

 


Offline robertleva

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #17 May 27, 2018, 08:06:19 PM
Please be patient.  Erebyss's buff will become toggleable soon (today I believe) and you'll be able to disable heredity when new game plus is implemented.
If you have to disable a feature via NG+, the feature wasn't implemented correctly in the first place.

I enjoy breeding, and I like the idea of the heredity system - I just loathe the implementation. When you start getting into the N4 (lv 200+) creatures, it simply takes too long to have to breed creatures for a generation just to increase caps so you can breed creatures to increase caps so you can breed them to finally increase caps on your main team you actually want to use.

Breeding should have been left entirely to new creature discovery/use only rather than stat (S2) / level cap (S3) increases.

My suggestion (and it's a large redesign):
1) Remove the ability to extract cores from anything but the starter creatures unless the player has unlocked the creature via breeding already.
2) Randomize creature breeding per game. So one games' recipes will not be the same as another's games'.

This does two things - it promotes discovery of the breeding recipes with creature experimentation, and forces the player to use the system in the game for actually making new creatures.
In S2 for example, I didn't really use the system much because I could easily look up and find how to make the creatures I wanted to make.
In S3, there's so many breeding recipes that result in the same creature that I'm finding myself rarely bothering to breed anything for a new creature. Resources are tight, and I can just go up a few floors and new enemies will appear that I can extract from. I feel that S3 is a real let-down here. I feel forced to expend massive resources to expand level caps - not for adding new and interesting creatures to my stables. And adding new and interesting creatures should be what breeding is about, no?

100% agree here. I guess our answer is NG+, but I feel like the system is clearly and obviously flawed in its current implementation and it should be fixed regardless.

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #16 May 27, 2018, 04:04:53 PM
Please be patient.  Erebyss's buff will become toggleable soon (today I believe) and you'll be able to disable heredity when new game plus is implemented.
If you have to disable a feature via NG+, the feature wasn't implemented correctly in the first place.

I enjoy breeding, and I like the idea of the heredity system - I just loathe the implementation. When you start getting into the N4 (lv 200+) creatures, it simply takes too long to have to breed creatures for a generation just to increase caps so you can breed creatures to increase caps so you can breed them to finally increase caps on your main team you actually want to use.

Breeding should have been left entirely to new creature discovery/use only rather than stat (S2) / level cap (S3) increases.

My suggestion (and it's a large redesign):
1) Remove the ability to extract cores from anything but the starter creatures unless the player has unlocked the creature via breeding already.
2) Randomize creature breeding per game. So one games' recipes will not be the same as another's games'.

This does two things - it promotes discovery of the breeding recipes with creature experimentation, and forces the player to use the system in the game for actually making new creatures.
In S2 for example, I didn't really use the system much because I could easily look up and find how to make the creatures I wanted to make.
In S3, there's so many breeding recipes that result in the same creature that I'm finding myself rarely bothering to breed anything for a new creature. Resources are tight, and I can just go up a few floors and new enemies will appear that I can extract from. I feel that S3 is a real let-down here. I feel forced to expend massive resources to expand level caps - not for adding new and interesting creatures to my stables. And adding new and interesting creatures should be what breeding is about, no?


Offline Visio

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #15 May 27, 2018, 09:52:49 AM
Please be patient.  Erebyss's buff will become toggleable soon (today I believe) and you'll be able to disable heredity when new game plus is implemented.
its actually not that all bad. but well heredity atm just takes/not gives anything so ppl dont feel rewarded for their efforts in any way. we are patient and can live with it just fine, but ofc everyone will disable it once ng+ is out because there is no point in pursuing it. you just unload tons of resources on breeding and have also to summon every creature your resources allow you to to have a breeding supply. plus the higher the level gets, the more the expenses will ramp up. idk at what level you ll start getting enough resources. if it was siralim 2 id say probably around nether 150, but its not :P
on a side note i dont really know what rewards might be, ramping creature strength would be crazy, maybe some special rewards for every X tier of heredity (every 10/50/100 pts) - may be a misc thing, may be different bonuses (resource/exp/some perk/ - can be thought over)
Thanks )

Offline Umaro

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #14 May 27, 2018, 08:42:39 AM
Please be patient.  Erebyss's buff will become toggleable soon (today I believe) and you'll be able to disable heredity when new game plus is implemented.

Offline robertleva

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #13 May 27, 2018, 08:38:09 AM
The experience gain of critters at the stable makes this problem basically unsolvable for me unless I start a new game entirely.

System needs help!!

Offline Visio

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #12 May 27, 2018, 08:07:31 AM
Having to create spellgem teams in order to avoid the hassles of the breeding is symptomatic of a system that is not healthy.

its just an option. but i admit i switch teams much more often now and have fun doing so. id never imagine running 6x fallen carnage earlier or that kind of stuff. spell gem team is just to quickly beef your creatures level up to a cap so they can contribute to breeding :P and since you want a sacrificee creatures you often end up with laughable trashy fun teams :P

but i have to say groups are capping really fast
plus resources are simply lacking, atm ive crossed my 80 with group of 80 to get +9 team, but i have a full stable of 50s now, and about enough brimstone/crystal to hatch main team.

so the big brickwall at this point is brimstone/crystal. i really hope that 140 team once it will cap will get some resources since after you ll have to take a nutz ladder of getting 2 groups of 50 bred (12k each res), levelled to 80, bred again with each other (6k hatch), levelled to 140 and bred with main group (6k more) totalling 24k brim/crys. and it will probably grow by +1 step higher with every cap hit. so the pyramid will grow crazy and getting to your usual lv1000 will break some sweat :P
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 09:47:34 AM by Visio »

Offline robertleva

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #11 May 27, 2018, 07:58:22 AM
Having to create spellgem teams in order to avoid the hassles of the breeding is symptomatic of a system that is not healthy.

Offline Visio

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #10 May 27, 2018, 07:49:22 AM
The heredity system is twofold.
1) you can experiment with cretures yes
2) you can just fully rely on spellgems and artifacts, making sure your team doesnt matter much, just adds a few perks or doesnt
------
while at it, id suggest:
1) make running creatures drop a core
2) make it so your capped creatures that dont recieve experience contribute the experience to the stables at a much higher rate
and/or
3) make it so your capped creatures that dont recieve experience get considerably more crystal/brimstone

As of now, i rely mostly on spellgems/artifacts so i can just get any 6 creatures of any level from stable,
all my resources are spent on summoning creatures as well
now im thinking of investing in resource perk heavily once ill get the opportunity

And nether creature even capped at lv 50 for quite long time doesnt look like a bad idea anymore since it can reduce the need of breeding to 1 creature per team :P and give some support too

Offline robertleva

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #9 May 27, 2018, 07:19:42 AM
The easy solution is just to have creatures that run away drop a core of the lead creature when you catch them along with the tiny XP/Resources.

I ran into this issue fairly early on. My solution was simply to make a brand new team at level 1 and go core capturing. It did feel like a step back, but in the end, it was two steps forward with the cores I gathered. And now I have a decent B team that can also capture cores quickly and effectively.

But I extracted cores from EVERY SINGLE monster while leveling up! The problem is I wasted all of my "useful" cores experimenting with breeding combinations. So I have tons of cores, just none that I can make a coherent team from. I am now being punished for that experimentation by getting locked out of lower level cores. It's a poor system design. Make the running away monsters drop some cores, or don't let them run away. That's an easy fix.

The level cap system is still a poorly designed "grind 4x as much as you should have to" type of system. Think about it, if you design a team that you like you actually have to make 4 copies at a minimum of that team and level them all up. That way when you hit lvl cap at 50 you breed them together and now you have 2 copies of the team. Repeat the process again at 100 and pray you get sick of the game before you need to raise the cap again because you are out of extra copies.

With new game plus I will turn that crap off immediately and just level 1 team to 100 like a normal system.

Also, how is heredity different from the gene strength system that stunk up S2?

Offline wolfgirl5000

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #8 May 27, 2018, 05:27:12 AM
I don't mind it, but everytime you breed you have to set their artifact & spells and behaviour again, which is quite annoying. furthermore, you gain levels so much faster than resources (brimstone & crystal especially) that I end up level capped and having to play gambling dwarves just to hatch my eggs

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #7 May 27, 2018, 01:51:26 AM
Well, but ultimately the OP is right.

It is an annoying mechanic.

Either remove the level cap or make the low level creature run much slower so that we can decide if we want to fight - if a team fails at a certain boss we have to train one way (increase the level of the failed team even further > no level cap) or the other (creating a new team and leveling it, but please without the runaway)  ;)

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #6 May 27, 2018, 01:01:41 AM
Personally, I very much like Heredity and the accompanying level caps. It encourages me to experiment with new teams and engage in breeding with my high-level creatures. The reason that I personally like it better than Gene Strength is two-fold:
1) It doesn't trivialize interesting fights the way high Gene Strength did
2) It feels a lot less grindy (I am not sure exactly why, but I think it is related to the fact that breeding high level creatures to increase Heredity hatches a new creature who starts at high level)

That being said, I completely agree with you that creatures running away can create a problem with acquiring cores. Someone had mentioned in Discord that perhaps the right answer is a way to toggle whether you want low-level creatures to run away.
I just have two teams. It was the same in S2, but more frustrating in S2. I had to design a team that could not only survive, but also lower the enemy health without killing them in order to extract cores.

Here, it's much easier to extract. I still think the proper solution is for the enemies that run away to have them drop a core of the lead monster though.

The entire thing also begs the question - why is there Mage/Ruler XP still in the game? It's almost meaningless here. Sure, you get a Deity Point per level, but that doesn't compare to what you gain from the gods themselves. Only 2% of my perk points have come from Mage XP, and as I play longer, I bet that number continues to decrease.

Offline Noetherian

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #5 May 27, 2018, 12:48:58 AM
Personally, I very much like Heredity and the accompanying level caps. It encourages me to experiment with new teams and engage in breeding with my high-level creatures. The reason that I personally like it better than Gene Strength is two-fold:
1) It doesn't trivialize interesting fights the way high Gene Strength did
2) It feels a lot less grindy (I am not sure exactly why, but I think it is related to the fact that breeding high level creatures to increase Heredity hatches a new creature who starts at high level)

That being said, I completely agree with you that creatures running away can create a problem with acquiring cores. Someone had mentioned in Discord that perhaps the right answer is a way to toggle whether you want low-level creatures to run away.

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Creature level caps destroying the story / game
Reply #4 May 27, 2018, 12:32:10 AM
So there I was, loving S3, grinding away at the story with my new team of critters and loving every minute of it. Then it all came crashing down when my main crew hit level 50. Main crew can't beat lvl 33 boss? Ok no prob I will make a new crew...Just kidding you can't. Your main crew is capped and you can't make a new crew because all the monsters you want to extract more cores from on the lower levels run away from you now and when you catch them you just get the exp and resources.

Zack - GET RID OF THE LEVEL CAPS!!

You already said gene strength was bad for S2, but now you add "heredity" which to my layman eyes is the exact same thing as gene strength. Compounded with the new level caps and prevention of farming lower realms, the system becomes WAY TOO RESTRICTIVE!!!

What exactly am I supposed to do if my capped critters cannot advance the story and I cannot get new critters because my Mage lvl is 46 and the creatures just run from me and prevent extracting cores??
The easy solution is just to have creatures that run away drop a core of the lead creature when you catch them along with the tiny XP/Resources.

I ran into this issue fairly early on. My solution was simply to make a brand new team at level 1 and go core capturing. It did feel like a step back, but in the end, it was two steps forward with the cores I gathered. And now I have a decent B team that can also capture cores quickly and effectively.