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Damage soft caps?  (Read 1006 times)

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #9 May 27, 2018, 04:14:58 PM
Personally, I quite like the fact that it is harder to one-shot in Siralim 3 than in Siralim 2. (It works both ways, my creatures also get one-shot a lot less!)

However, the current damage equation has some issues (less one-shotting is good, but currently there is very limited damage scaling which makes many traits nearly worthless.)

So, I am very happy to hear that the damage equation will be adjusted at some point. :-)

Side Note: This may be related to why many boss fights "seem" easy (there is another thread on boss difficulty). Because bosses have more hit points, damage against a boss scales differently than damage against regular monsters .... So bosses have more health than regular monsters, but to someone playing a high-attack team, it doesn't "feel" like the boss has more health because hits against the boss are much bigger
Anti one-shot is fine, but a damage cap isn't the way to go about it.
If attacks and spells are dealing too much damage, lower the coefficients of the abilities. I heavily dislike going into fights dealing 300 damage, and then suddenly just because the enemy has a large HP pool, I'm doing 1200. If I get a super strong spell, why do I want to cast it for more mana than a weaker spell for less? They deal about the same damage due to the cap.   

And it does cut both ways - to an extent. The truly deadly enemies are those using debuffs, multihit spells, and cast on-death things. I never feel threatened by any single attack nor single spell. Shell has become nearly worthless. And if I increase my HP, I'm not really increasing anything - because the enemies just hit me for more (which requires more effective healing should I choose to heal).

I can wait for better damage mechanics, but I can't support a damage cap in a single player game revolving around creature stats.

Offline Noetherian

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #8 May 27, 2018, 04:03:03 PM
Personally, I quite like the fact that it is harder to one-shot in Siralim 3 than in Siralim 2. (It works both ways, my creatures also get one-shot a lot less!)

However, the current damage equation has some issues (less one-shotting is good, but currently there is very limited damage scaling which makes many traits nearly worthless.)

So, I am very happy to hear that the damage equation will be adjusted at some point. :-)

Side Note: This may be related to why many boss fights "seem" easy (there is another thread on boss difficulty). Because bosses have more hit points, damage against a boss scales differently than damage against regular monsters .... So bosses have more health than regular monsters, but to someone playing a high-attack team, it doesn't "feel" like the boss has more health because hits against the boss are much bigger

Offline Zack

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #7 May 27, 2018, 03:47:02 PM
Damage is a little weird right now. It's not really bugged, but the new damage formula is poorly-designed so it's something I need to adjust whenever I can get around to it. Please be patient, though, because as you might imagine there are some other things I need to address first :)
Designer and Programmer of Siralim and The Negative. Follow us on: Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #6 May 27, 2018, 03:27:32 PM
I'm actually vehemently against this mechanic. There's many things in the game that bypass this (like ohh... anything that multihits or does non-attack/spell damage). It seems arbitrary to limit spell and attack damage rather than properly tune them against enemy HP or against Defense.

Why should a debuff like Burn/Poison ignore the cap and one-shot, while an attack or spell from a clearly superior attack not? Why should traits like Mana Bomb do full damage, but the spell I cast not? All it does is diminish the attack/intelligence stats as related to attacks and spells and puts more emphasis on multihits and non-stat abilities. It also means that Tomes aren't really worth it, and Attack/Intelligence on Artifacts aren't either.

After the story is complete, I can't see continuing to play the game if stats don't really matter and my effective damage doesn't increase. What's left for me to grow? HP? Defense (maybe?).
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 04:06:37 PM by Psylisa »

Offline Noetherian

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #5 May 27, 2018, 10:16:16 AM
Zack: Can you provide us with the damage equation?

Offline jamosup

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #4 May 27, 2018, 08:07:22 AM
Now, I'm not necessarily against this, as I assume it's meant to try to slowdown the gameplay due to the rampant one-shot meta from the first two games. I think maybe it can be eased up on a little bit (I'm just assuming it's still possible to oneshot things if you are ridiculously strong.), but this also likely gives the player time to react against huge hits from the enemy, too.  My opinions are a little mixed on the matter, though, it does punish heavy stat stacking to a degree, and  can make it a little misleading on how strong you actually are (when my chaos starter monster is doing 50 dmg to normal enemies, and then whacks a boss for almost 150, I can't really tell what I can take on yet). At the same time, it's a decent solution as to how to make sure ending a battle round 1 takes serious work. I'd like to hear other's thoughts!

By the way, Siralim 3 is great. I like all the little sound effects when you equip things and take actions, adds a new level of polish, in my opinion. The early game moves a little faster compared to 2, because the random artifacts you get are actually really nice. I will say the bosses have been kind of easy, but I was overleveled to a degree. (Though the 2nd boss using its mechanic on my Priest, who doesn't get to take its turn, is a little cheeky. Nothing I couldn't deal with, though.)

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #3 May 27, 2018, 04:30:00 AM
Here's the chain lightning on a 1 Defense Emerald Paragon vs a 1 Defense Mimic

The Emerald Paragon *should* be taking more due to his trait. But normal enemies seem to take around 100-150 or so. Things with lots of HP take more. I think you're right about the anti one-shot mechanic.

https://imgur.com/CYFVsQb
https://imgur.com/Ly0zvlv

This also implies that your stats don't really matter after you reach the soft cap in terms of damage. So now I question why I have an artifact that increases Intelligence by 114% if it doesn't matter? :D
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 04:33:33 AM by Psylisa »

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Damage soft caps?
Reply #2 May 27, 2018, 03:33:00 AM
I've noticed so far playing up to realm 9 that my creatures, despite having rather disparant Attack stats, do rather similar damage to most monsters, not able to kill them in one hit. But when a higher HP enemy, like a boss or a static fight "miniboss" enemy with extra HP, my damage goes up significantly, especialyl for the high Attack monsters. Is this some sort of system to keep battles from being as instant-kill focused?

Also, once some enemy cast a spell gem that "Trapped" one of my monsters, seemingly killing it instantly from full health. What was going on there?
I noticed similar as well. It seems to be about 25%-33% of mob life, and it takes utterly massive stats to do more than that.
I fought some enemies 10 levels below me that I should have decimated with one cast. But it took 3. I've got a caster monster with an Intelligence of 2,000 in one of my saves. I just fought an enemy with 400 HP and 97 defense. I should blow it out of the water with ease; still took 3 casts.

Then I fought some enemies a few levels above me - and it was about the same results. They died in 3 casts.

So yeah, I think there's some sort of funny business with the damage formulas in this one.

The other thing I noticed is that if you go back to "trivial" realms where the monsters run away from you, the treasure received is drastically reduced. You won't get any equipment, spell gems, or artifact parts aside from the special nodes that specifically drop them. This means if you get behind the curve, it can be VERY difficult trying to claw your way back.

EDIT: I'll use this Mimic I just fought as an example.
I used Shellburst on him, and reduced his Defense to 1.
Then I cast Chain Lightning. It hit for just under 700 (he had 2400 HP).

Next battle - I used Shellburst on another enemy (it was an Emerald Paragon), reduced their Defense to 1.
Then I cast Chain Lightning. It hit for just over 174 (the enemy had 500 HP).
Via the Emerald Paragon's trait, it should be taking even MORE than the Mimic did!

So yeah, something strange with these calculations!
« Last Edit: May 27, 2018, 03:55:27 AM by Psylisa »

Offline jamosup

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Damage soft caps?
Reply #1 May 27, 2018, 12:48:56 AM
I've noticed so far playing up to realm 9 that my creatures, despite having rather disparant Attack stats, do rather similar damage to most monsters, not able to kill them in one hit. But when a higher HP enemy, like a boss or a static fight "miniboss" enemy with extra HP, my damage goes up significantly, especialyl for the high Attack monsters. Is this some sort of system to keep battles from being as instant-kill focused?

Also, once some enemy cast a spell gem that "Trapped" one of my monsters, seemingly killing it instantly from full health. What was going on there?