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discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?  (Read 1352 times)

Offline RegalKain

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #16 June 07, 2018, 11:24:30 PM
On-Topic: I have to say, I'm glad to see others are poking about Life Mage and voicing their opinions as well, at first I was worried the few of us who have played it were maybe just missing something, but it seems everyone agrees Life Mage is a "Class change into me" not a  "Start as me" class.

Off-Topic: IF you're ever curious about broken or imbalanced builds, look up a speed run of the game in question, speed runners abuse and break most games with odd builds that you wouldn't normally utilize or think of, usually to crush or instantly win their fights.

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #15 June 07, 2018, 07:41:50 PM
@Psylisa
Okay, tried it, too. Life Mage do is weak in practice. I see it now and Emlai is inferior to many other creatures, it truly needs a buff - moreover the life mage's perks aren't worth it as you explained. Actually I never manually healed or used barrier, so I could not really judge it.

And I cannot really recall any boss in S3 as you said. Was Realm 18 that barrier guy? The only one that surprised me. Again, is this the fault of the spell bloat, the perks or the creature's traits? Imho no, the bosses need a rework or the damage formula needs a nerf and the unlocking order of the creatures needs to be examined so that we cannot get 15x cast so early.
Here we also have my point with the classes. Just use any class and skill nothing. Will it change the outcome of the fights? Maybe very early on, but after unlocking the breeder you can build a creature team that outperforms most class perk.

Let's try a gedanken experiement (if you want):
What do you think? I we give all bosses i. e. 10x the health and we let everything else as it is right now, would it be sufficient for a tough fight?
If I recall the barrier guy, I think I wouldn't have one-turn-killed him and actually had to react to his gimmick.

And now your challenge ;D:
FF VI = Genji Glove + Offering >> bye Bye Kefka - Well, one turn or one action kill, but you know what I meant with one-shot. One shot in the meaning of one-turn-kill, one-action-leads-to-multiple-actions kill or an extremely trivializing build

FF IV  = No, you are right.

FF I =  Here I also haven't found any truly imba combo

Wild Arms =  If we talk about Part I or the Remake: Rudy >> high dmg arm + lock on or that arm-buff, Jack >> Dual Attack,  Cecilia >> her Dual Cast. With decent gear you could kill most story bosses before they could react (everybody one action/command), only the final Zeikfried and the optional bosses survived a little longer and with the exception of Ragul Ragala (or what his name was) none was dangerous. Moreover with or without the infinite item glitch, you could rather easy optimize  stats via the apples and therefore max dmg. 

BoF = if we talk about III, okay I give you that, too. In this game even the critters where terrific. Part IV on the other hand had a lot of multi attacks, no real one turn/one shot builds but still fast boss fights without healing were possible in late game (and I don't talk about Fou-Lou as your player character)

You gave me 5, I could hand you 2 real trivializing builds (FF6 and Wild Arms I). So  2 out of 5  :'(, you clearly won  3:2 :-*. Maybe some other older FF titles haven't unbalanced builds, too. Ultimately most RPGs tend to be unbalanced; but cutting out traits, spells and stuff would be a too easy solution.

Offline Psylisa

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #14 June 06, 2018, 03:44:52 PM
Hmmmm yes it is the same; for myself that is what I expected and wanted - "the same 3.0". If they want to create a non-grindy balanced game they shouldn't use Siralim, they should start a new series.
And what is that deal with the Life Mage? I've read some threads about Life Mage being too weak. You guys and girls measure strength in killing time. Nobody forces you to build around your mage. I am playing Death mage with a chaos beatdown team. The classes are meant to add a little extra not to pin you down. If something kills, it will still kill with or without 50% Intelligence added to attack stat i. e.
Life mage is weak mage. It's just the way it is. If you don't understand, start a new game as a Life mage. Then you'll understand. It's been outlined numerous times by numerous people: the starting creature is weak, your perks don't help you kill nor survive, and Life spells cost too much for too little return. There's some good Perks in Life Mage, but none of them are early Perks. You want to negate attacks? Invest 150 points (at least) in Attack Block or Spell Block before you start to see meaningful returns. Overheal? It doesn't help you do anything until you get Abnegation (which is a very late game trait). Luminesce is worthless, as it has a lower cap than standard Barriers, and overwrites bigger Barriers. Healing Given/Received again isn't worthy as you rarely need to heal thousands of HPs, especially early on. Meanwhile, I can put 50 Perk Points into any other class, and receive tangible benefits that greatly help.

Moreover the one-shot-thingy is a characteristic of RPGs. Give me one - Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Witcher, Valkyrie Profile, Wild Arms, Diablo, Persona, Gothic, Xenoblade or whatever - and I give you a one-shot build or a fast-kill-build respectively. At least in Siralim one-shoters can loose effectiveness.
The difference is that you're one-shotting at level 10 rather than supreme post-game. Even the bosses in S3 get one-shot. Aside from the level 18 boss, can you recall any meaningful encounters? And as I said, the level 18 boss I only remember because of my Life game. The other mages sailed right on through.

Want me to name other games in your list? Fine.
Final Fantasy - You're not going to one-shot Garland when you encounter him, much less any of the other bosses.
Final Fantasy IV - You're not one-shotting ANY of the bosses in this game.
Final Fantasy VI - You're telling me you one-shot Kefka? Truly?
Breath of Fire - None of the bosses you were one-shotting. At all.
Wild Arms - lol? The game was set up for bosses to be HP sponges. You didn't have a one-shot team.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 03:59:51 PM by Psylisa »

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #13 June 06, 2018, 03:06:44 PM
To me, it always seemed the final goal was to assemble a team where you could just hold E to win any fight in the game ;) At least in normal fights...

But even that only works in most cases. Every now and then, some unusual set of circumstances will require you to react in some way. Still, ALMOST always holding E is about as exciting as working the night shift as a security guard for an empty parking lot...

But then again, while numbers still matter in your fights, more meaningful challenges can always be found in some lower realm depth. Plus I dare to claim that whatever ultimate strategy someone comes up with, they won't work for every type of Itherian Realm/Sigil :P

The more I think about it, the more I really want this mode. Show me the huge number (one for each creature of course) that is the sum total of everything that happened in that turn. If you need details, there's always 'History'.
This way, there will be a much more immediate "decision -> result" feedback loop, which means you will spend time on decisions in proportion to how meaningful they are. For now, it's still fun watching it all play out, but I remember Siralim 2, where I would put a weight on the confirm button and wait for (no exaggeration) more than 20 minutes for everything to be cast at start of battle. Man, that would have been awesome to just see a gigantic number after the few seconds it takes the game to calculate it all...

I truly like your post and your Idea of Siralim. Furthermore I'd love such a uber turbo mode, too

Sadly right now it really feels like more of the same for me. I'm going to wait until it's full release and give it another go before I review it, because right now the review would just be to buy Siralim 2 and avoid this. I think a large part of that sting is because I chose Life Mage as my starting class and that was just a monumental mistake, it felt grindy from level 1 on, to the point of dying in my first battle in Realm 1. While I understand the reasoning behind it, the perks just feel lack luster, the "trim down" did no favors for  Life Mage and it made it so that you don't start Life Mage, you class change into it once you have enough Perk Points to really boost yourself.
 

Hmmmm yes it is the same; for myself that is what I expected and wanted - "the same 3.0". If they want to create a non-grindy balanced game they shouldn't use Siralim, they should start a new series.
And what is that deal with the Life Mage? I've read some threads about Life Mage being too weak. You guys and girls measure strength in killing time. Nobody forces you to build around your mage. I am playing Death mage with a chaos beatdown team. The classes are meant to add a little extra not to pin you down. If something kills, it will still kill with or without 50% Intelligence added to attack stat i. e.

And yes, largely I agree that Sirilim 3 is essentially Sirilim 2.5. What I was expecting from the developer notes prior to release was a completely reworked and revamped battle system such that one-shot teams weren't going to be a thing. But Sirilim is still Sirilim... one-shot or get out. Many of the bugs present in S2 made their way into S3. Even in S3, it's VERY apparent that balance is out the window when one of the first creatures you can get is one that allows you to double cast all your Nature spells - and then his brother that allows free Shellburst. In post-game, the only way I die is if there's a massively lucky enemy team that somehow disables my traits, artifacts, reduces my stats, and seals off my spells and attacks. All of those things at once need to occur.

I agree it need some balance. However, "balance" in the meaning of stronger enemy teams not in the meaning of cutting down player's possibilities. Well, good thing would be if they are able to create bosses randomly; if we upload our teams in the tavern level scaled, why not use these teams for itherian realm special bosses unscaled?
Moreover the one-shot-thingy is a characteristic of RPGs. Give me one - Final Fantasy, Breath of Fire, Elder Scrolls, Mass Effect, Witcher, Valkyrie Profile, Wild Arms, Diablo, Persona, Gothic, Xenoblade or whatever - and I give you a one-shot build or a fast-kill-build respectively. At least in Siralim one-shoters can loose effectiveness. 
And critters are critters. I barely know games where critters offer meaningful battles, it all comes down to bosses/special encounters and those are need a buff beyond repair  ;D

Spell bloat is another real concern. There's a billion different spells, and some of them are now (almost) useless, and many of them are certainly redundant. Identify Creature? Why is it still in the game? Why does Life have 4 different single-target healing spells and 3 different Resurrects? I'd rather the spell gems be massively trimmed, and the schools better defined. One school for primarily AoE, one for big single-target, one for status effects, stat boosts, etc., etc. Creature mana has certainly been improved (I actually cared about it... for a little while), and gone are trigger-mechanic properties of spell gems. Both of those are good things. But now we have class-swapping gems. In an of itself, it's not an issue. But that double-casting Nature trait I mentioned above? Yeah, now you can double-cast Planets by making bending it to Nature.

The resurrects are actually pretty neat, not every creature can utilize full resurrect concerning the mana cost. Cheap resurrect > kill own creature > get stronger > maniacal laughter > repeat
Spell bloat offers more possibilities if one can cope with this or not depends on one's own creativity. Yes, identify creature needs to be removed, I bet during early access it will be and I also do not see the point of the 4 different healing spells. But just because we don't see the point does not mean other play don't see one, too.
It is the same as this pointless Heart-of-Darkness-Discussion: It is a feature that is not forced on you. Use it or not - like the spells - but please refrain from removing it.
Your school-approach would work, Zack used a theme-based approach to spells that also works; this is just a minor detail and not a game changer. And because the country of Nex has powerful mages we can bend the spell gem to our class with the right material - this made actually the difference between win or lose for me sometimes.

With the rest i mostly agree with you especially the pointless breeding, the longer I play the more I wish my Gene Strength back.

And one important thing:
Hands down, of course this game is not designed for me in particular and I want you guys to have fun, too. They advertised it with never-ending-story, unlimited everything and so on.
I think what it comes down to is either they balance it and players with a view similar to mine stop playing or they deepen the brokenness further and you and others with your point of view lose interest.
Or will Thylacine be able to unite us????

We will know after full release and so long I will save my review, too.

Again, nice discussion and nice opinions, thanks for that  ;) - I hope it helps dev team

Offline Psylisa

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #12 June 05, 2018, 07:48:48 PM
Sadly right now it really feels like more of the same for me. I'm going to wait until it's full release and give it another go before I review it, because right now the review would just be to buy Siralim 2 and avoid this. I think a large part of that sting is because I chose Life Mage as my starting class and that was just a monumental mistake, it felt grindy from level 1 on, to the point of dying in my first battle in Realm 1. While I understand the reasoning behind it, the perks just feel lack luster, the "trim down" did no favors for  Life Mage and it made it so that you don't start Life Mage, you class change into it once you have enough Perk Points to really boost yourself.

 I feel that "meaningful" battles happen a lot early game as a Life Mage, because you have to be super careful with every single turn and you risk wiping at the slightest mistake, mostly because if you have gotten unlucky and have no healing gems, you have basically no perks at all with which to support your team. Ultimately a game that has "no level caps" will always eventually turn into a Hold E and win or die game. Just because there's no balance at that level of stats and the millions of combinations you can access via creatures and artifacts. I have hopes that the game turns out to be a good game, but right now it just feels like I'm playing a dumbed down version of Siralim 2, which is sad for me.
I felt that way about Sirilim 3 as well. I don't think of it as a "dumbed down" version, it's a "held back" version. And by that I mean until you hit post-game, many of the options are simply inaccessible. Most of what was in the older perks went to traits or Itherian creatures, and things that aren't accessible without lots of grind/god favor.

I too started Life mage, and regretted it. But I played all the mages through to completion. Life was by far the hardest, hands down - and it can be directly attributed to Life perks. I think it took me 20 hours to finish Life Mage main game, where the others took me 1/2 or less. The bosses were also largely forgettable, save for the level 18 Horde boss. And that was only memorable on my Life mage, because it was the only one that struggled. The others blew them all up without issue.

And yes, largely I agree that Sirilim 3 is essentially Sirilim 2.5. What I was expecting from the developer notes prior to release was a completely reworked and revamped battle system such that one-shot teams weren't going to be a thing. But Sirilim is still Sirilim... one-shot or get out. Many of the bugs present in S2 made their way into S3. Even in S3, it's VERY apparent that balance is out the window when one of the first creatures you can get is one that allows you to double cast all your Nature spells - and then his brother that allows free Shellburst. In post-game, the only way I die is if there's a massively lucky enemy team that somehow disables my traits, artifacts, reduces my stats, and seals off my spells and attacks. All of those things at once need to occur.

Breeding was also a large disappointment in this go. Too many creatures loop back to the tier 1-3 critters, essentially locking you in to set creatures. Emblem creatures round out the tier 4, and need lots of grinding to unlock. Breeding is easily passed over until post-game, and even then it's simply easier (and more resource/time efficient) to ignore it and climb floors since extraction is 100% for most creatures. Breeding also no longer unlock creatures in the wild, so until you climb floors, you fight the same enemies repeatedly whether you breed or not.

Itherians are a great improvement to the game, though. There's a definite feeling of wanting to chase those creatures and capture them, because you can't breed them. It's the only way to find them.

Spell bloat is another real concern. There's a billion different spells, and some of them are now (almost) useless, and many of them are certainly redundant. Identify Creature? Why is it still in the game? Why does Life have 4 different single-target healing spells and 3 different Resurrects? I'd rather the spell gems be massively trimmed, and the schools better defined. One school for primarily AoE, one for big single-target, one for status effects, stat boosts, etc., etc. Creature mana has certainly been improved (I actually cared about it... for a little while), and gone are trigger-mechanic properties of spell gems. Both of those are good things. But now we have class-swapping gems. In an of itself, it's not an issue. But that double-casting Nature trait I mentioned above? Yeah, now you can double-cast Planets by making bending it to Nature.

Gone are the days of Gene Strength, but I'm not sure the replacement is all that better. It's another one of those "I cared about it at the start" type of situations. But once you start finding eggs that double your Heredity, it simply ceases to matter. Now I just staple whatever egg I happen to find on to my creature, raise the level cap, and move on.

Overall, I play it. I'm mixed on it. It's certainly not everything I was hoping for, but it's not a total letdown, either. Like you, I'll save my review for after release. I don't think it's fair to ultimately judge a product based on Early Access.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 08:06:48 PM by Psylisa »

Offline RegalKain

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #11 June 05, 2018, 05:56:16 PM
Sadly right now it really feels like more of the same for me. I'm going to wait until it's full release and give it another go before I review it, because right now the review would just be to buy Siralim 2 and avoid this. I think a large part of that sting is because I chose Life Mage as my starting class and that was just a monumental mistake, it felt grindy from level 1 on, to the point of dying in my first battle in Realm 1. While I understand the reasoning behind it, the perks just feel lack luster, the "trim down" did no favors for  Life Mage and it made it so that you don't start Life Mage, you class change into it once you have enough Perk Points to really boost yourself.

 I feel that "meaningful" battles happen a lot early game as a Life Mage, because you have to be super careful with every single turn and you risk wiping at the slightest mistake, mostly because if you have gotten unlucky and have no healing gems, you have basically no perks at all with which to support your team. Ultimately a game that has "no level caps" will always eventually turn into a Hold E and win or die game. Just because there's no balance at that level of stats and the millions of combinations you can access via creatures and artifacts. I have hopes that the game turns out to be a good game, but right now it just feels like I'm playing a dumbed down version of Siralim 2, which is sad for me.

Offline TrashT

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #10 June 05, 2018, 08:43:36 AM
To me, it always seemed the final goal was to assemble a team where you could just hold E to win any fight in the game ;) At least in normal fights...

But even that only works in most cases. Every now and then, some unusual set of circumstances will require you to react in some way. Still, ALMOST always holding E is about as exciting as working the night shift as a security guard for an empty parking lot...

But then again, while numbers still matter in your fights, more meaningful challenges can always be found in some lower realm depth. Plus I dare to claim that whatever ultimate strategy someone comes up with, they won't work for every type of Itherian Realm/Sigil :P

I think what the game needs is an even turbo-er mode. You make a choice, the game calculates it as quickly as it can, and just shows you the total result in one damage number. The way it is, you still spend most of your time waiting for your turn to make a decision, and/or you hold E in super turbo mode but that kinda turns a turn-based strategy game into a reaction-based affair, where you have to make sure you let go of E quickly enough in case you need to do something else.

The more I think about it, the more I really want this mode. Show me the huge number (one for each creature of course) that is the sum total of everything that happened in that turn. If you need details, there's always 'History'.
This way, there will be a much more immediate "decision -> result" feedback loop, which means you will spend time on decisions in proportion to how meaningful they are. For now, it's still fun watching it all play out, but I remember Siralim 2, where I would put a weight on the confirm button and wait for (no exaggeration) more than 20 minutes for everything to be cast at start of battle. Man, that would have been awesome to just see a gigantic number after the few seconds it takes the game to calculate it all...

Offline Visio

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #9 June 02, 2018, 01:34:11 PM
well thats a bit controversal. if you dont seek a challenge there are always easy areas to do that you ll be bound to hold e. or not.
well balanced group is stronger then 90% of random ones. and if you fight monsters around your level they are way weaker since you have your character perks affecting fight/as well as cards/runes.
So yep if you want a challenge: itherian realms/normal realms - go as high as you go. always take new floors.
and arena, there everything is equal. i think your runes still might work, but nothing else. and fights gets progressively harder.
and its almost never holding e. as you can get mad lucky in one fight but not in 5 in a row.

So its all there just for you to grab. Fighting monsters of same or slightly higher level would almost never pose a challenge, maybe only in first minutes/hours of game when your char has zero perks/team is random/no artifacts and you dont know what to do.

Offline wolfgirl5000

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #8 June 02, 2018, 01:15:13 PM
S3 feels more like Sirilim 2.5. Nothing really major has shifted, and the core combat is the same. Some of the same issues with S2 are still present in S3. Breeding has taken a large sideline, as you can only breed about 1-3 tiers of creatures.

I feel terrible writing so negatively, but especially your point that S3 doesn't feel like a new game like S2 did compared to S1 stings a lot. I don't care for all the extra systems, all I wanted is more involved & strategic core combat. Breeding is a pretty meaningless resource sink and I couldn't find any fun in it at all, especially since recipes go off creatures and not cores, and who has the resources/time to hatch every core (multiple times)?

Most people mention that eventually itherian realms / nether creatures do pose a challenge, and while it's true a challenge can be found in these, you still have to actively seek it out, as 90% of these remain mindlessly holding 'e' down. And without challenging battles, siralim basically becomes a resource allocator, where the only mindful decisions you have to make is how to distribute your resources.

I'm excited for what new game+ brings, perhaps there's a clever option that can change the gameplay in a way some of us desire without too much effort.

Offline Psylisa

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #7 June 02, 2018, 11:17:00 AM
since this hasn't changed since the first game, is balance even possible for siralim? autocast is part of the problem, and runes aren't helping either, but it may be the very base systems of the game that can't be balanced without a major overhaul.
This is what I strongly believe. I was excited to hear that Zack wanted S3 to move away from what S1 and S2 were, only to be disappointed with S3.

S3 feels more like Sirilim 2.5. Nothing really major has shifted, and the core combat is the same. Some of the same issues with S2 are still present in S3. Breeding has taken a large sideline, as you can only breed about 1-3 tiers of creatures. 4th tier is locked behind god emblems, and 5th tier Itherian. Sure, I can find 5,000 breeding recipes, but what good are they if they just loop back to the same 3 creatures? No, I don't need to know how to make Glutinous Slime 20 different ways. As for Heredity, it feels like Gene Strength all over again. Yes, I can breed some creatures, yes I can stable them for XP, and yes, I can staple them on to my team to make them stronger. But in the end, I don't - because I can find eggs that are +80 Heredity and just staple them on my team.

Offline robertleva

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #6 June 02, 2018, 10:26:02 AM
In my opinion the whole point of this game is running around discovering the most broken team you can think of, and pit that team against an endless stream of enemies who keep getting stronger.


Offline Visio

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #5 June 02, 2018, 10:03:13 AM
some battles are challenging, some are not, depends on what realm setup, level you ll have. if you find combat too soft/unrewarding there are always itherian realms with their mods, or maybe you need to climb realms faster. since you have char perks that affect your stats. I think itherian realm can provide valid challenge. since monsters there can be much stronger then yours, with some crazy setups, some are simply unbeatable with your current party setup. Ofc not many ppl will crawl into certainly disadvantageous realm mods. But it can be quite interesting. For instance no nether cripples me greatly since i totally rely on speed bonus from its aura to go first. If i dont well, its still ok but then i can get silence on everyone. And only my nether has a setup of doing non-attack/non-spell damage. If its too simple maybe you should dive deeped into itherian, always do sigils with 5 options, only rerolling some absurd things.

plus its still ea/ we yet to see true itherian bosses/nether bosses/gods etc.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 10:11:12 AM by Visio »

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #4 June 02, 2018, 09:54:09 AM

since this hasn't changed since the first game, is balance even possible for siralim? autocast is part of the problem, and runes aren't helping either, but it may be the very base systems of the game that can't be balanced without a major overhaul.


Interesting discussion. Counter question:

Do we really want true balance? For myself a big fat NO

I actually want unbalanced overpowered unfair boss battles
I wannt broken beyond imagination setups with op artifacts op multi-autocasting, op defenses and op runes, talisman, cards.
That is something no other game can offer - and because enemies getting stronger and stronger, Every strategy fails at a certain point or at least loose effectiveness and you have to rethink
your team. 

For people wanting a monster breeding/catching game with balanced fights go for Pokemon - there are many hacks and fangames I recommend Pokemon insurgence or reborn that offers fresh experiences and new gameplay elements.

But only Siralim has infinite leveling, grinding and possibilities to subdue your foes  :D 

To be fair:
If a certain combo would end a battle in an instant, it could be nerfed but if I or the enemy can take at least one action, the game provides opportunity to turn the tide of the battle.
Does this really need a major overhaul?

Offline Visio

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #3 June 02, 2018, 09:38:20 AM
as i came into itherian realm leaving my nether in the stables cuz realm prohinited it suddenly many battles became meaningful. w/o that bonus. and my team looked just ok, not nearly op. also as i went to ith realm inhabited by vulpes race with my stats shuffled it was borderline as well. since i dont autocast but they do.

Offline Umaro

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Re: discussion: can siralim have meaningful battles?
Reply #2 June 02, 2018, 08:46:59 AM
It can: play some Arena and you'll see  ;D

The "problem" here is that you can't have both a fully-optimized team (and thus speed) and meaningful battles, and it's common to want to end battles as quickly as possible to achieve other goals.

However, Siralim 3 has improved a lot in this regard, with the addition of Nemesis packs (particularly Thorns punishes autobattling) and Sigil properties, which force you to think about what you're doing.