Thylacine Studios - Forum

Siralim => Gameplay and Balance => Topic started by: Cephyric on May 11, 2015, 04:25:33 PM

Title: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Cephyric on May 11, 2015, 04:25:33 PM
Anything you feel is way too strong or too weak? Explain your reasoning here and give suggested input.

For beginners, Ill mention the combination of Viper Occultist and Unguided Entity.

Recomending a nerf to it, heres why:
The combination of Viper and Unguided Entity oneshots any target as long as you keep your power balance high enough. The percentage-based damage makes endless builds very easy to pull off (4x this combo, a topaz paragon and a pegasus with Electroheart beats anything in the game, basically)
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Zack on May 11, 2015, 04:39:14 PM
Thanks for starting this thread! I'm curious to hear what everyone has to say.

I took a look at Unguided Entity and it's actually bugged; it should only ever deal damage equal to 40% of the target's Current Health under any circumstance.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 11, 2015, 04:42:39 PM
Seems Cephyric beat me to making this! Replying here, then:

The following are just my opinions: some folks obviously have a lot more experience with the game than I do, and hopefully they'll chime in.

Nerfs

Unguided Entity + Incantation: Won't go into much depth on this one because there is another thread on it, but at max power balance this theoretically one-shots anything.

Doom Devil: Timebomb at will is another one of those "endless depth" things, so long as you can stall long enough for the devil(s) to kill everything. Gets crazy with Itchy Finger. Perhaps Timebomb should just do damage?

Perfect Defenders: This one's going to be a bit controversial, but hear me out. I'm specifically talking about two things here: the Mummy Lord and the Witch Doctor Sacrificer. The problem being that once you get a "perfect defense" set-up, the rest of the tanks in the game feel entirely useless in comparison. Why bother with a Chaos Guard when I set it up so I never take more than one damage from attacks, ever? This gets more problematic because both Death Beckons and Blood Dance have flaws built into the abilities...flaws that can be countered with another ability (Steadfast Resilience and Cloak and Dagger, respectively.) Perhaps the abilities should prevent you from keeping those respective buffs?

Buffs

Troll Alemaster: I actually feel a little awkward putting this here, because I get the impression that this is a joke creature and not really intended to be used in any serious capacity. Nonetheless, I'm bringing him up. Near as I can tell, Mystery Brew just slaps a random debuff on everyone in the battle, either Buzzed, Tipsy, Drunk, or Smashed. Which is hilarious, sure, but it screws you over more often than it messes up the enemy, since two of those buffs can restrict commands. The last thing you want is a defender to get Tipsy, for example, and near as I can tell this provides you with no real benefit or way to exploit it that benefits you more than the enemy. Other than tweaking the debuffs, perhaps Mystery Brew should instead inflict everyone with a gradually shifting debuff, like going from Buzzed -> Tipsy -> Drunk -> Smashed as the battle continues. At least then it would be something you could plan around.

Dryad Naturalist: Already acknowledged, but I'm putting it here for completeness: the Naturalist's ability is just a worse version of the Nightmare Golem's.

Twisted Devil, Elder Ent, etc.: The best buff these guys can get is the removal of Villify and Warp Reality. Egad. That said, the Twisted Devil in particular is a bit puzzling. He's a tier one creature, the starter for Chaos mages, but he doesn't actually seem any good at his job as an attacker until much, much later when you can build around buffing Luck. At the least, he feels like a much weaker tier one critter than things like the Iron Golem.

Minotaur Warrior, Minotaur Juggernaut, Winter Aspect, etc.: These creatures kind of lost their purpose with the taunt nerf. You can no longer even attempt to make a creature that is both a tank and an attacker, since Taunt now requires provoking and the meta basically asks that you take one creature and make him go full on defense for tanking purposes. So, any creature that is effectively "get hit to increase damage on attack" is dubiously useful at best. This is particularly perplexing for the Minotaur Juggernaut, who explicitly needs to hit the attack button to use his ability.

Other Thoughts

Abbadon Guard: See the above re: Minotaur Warriors and such. At least some use for Sidewinder can be used, but I don't think it will see anything other than Assault Stance due to how binary tanking is in this game. Perhaps, at the very least, they should get the ability to stack stances?

Nightmare Mummy and Topaz Paragon: So, I don't think these abilities are OP on their own. Rather, I think they expose a problem with the magic system in the game. There's something clearly wrong when I find that the game is much more fun and interesting when you completely remove the magic system from it. I know this is undergoing a change in the future, but I'm going to express that my problems with the magic system is mostly that it benefits enemies more than it benefits me. They don't need to worry about limited spell charges, I do. That alone is enough to banish spells into a "save it for emergencies" role for folks like me. The fact that enemies can just randomly throw an Aftermath or Armageddon from nowhere is enough for me to think that Nightmare Mummy is a mandatory creature for any of my builds.

That's enough for now. I think discussing the nuances of which attackers are better than others can come later.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Arqane on May 11, 2015, 06:58:24 PM
I hate to mention it, but I'd have to say Electroheart (there's a reason Cephyric put it in an unbeatable group).  It's just a bit too easy to abuse if you know how the enemy AI works.  Make it a tempting target, and anything but spells will automatically give you 2 turns for free.  And it's quite easy to get the creature up in the meantime and repeat the process.  Maybe make it non-resurrectable, or only a 1 turn stun.

Though I'd have to say, I'd like to see abilities follow more of a level/rarity trend for their power.  Some skills can be very powerful if you need to get L30 on More Creatures, and their respective legendary material should be hard to find.  Skills will never be fully even, but at least you can say you worked hard, or got really lucky, for some of the more powerful ones.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: jamosup on May 11, 2015, 07:10:00 PM
I agree with Electroheart being reduced to one turn, and maybe also not a 100% proc rate as well. One of the silliest abilities in the game, especially if you combine it with Cradle to the Grave.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Arqane on May 11, 2015, 08:39:37 PM
I think something that would help is an anti-stun ability or three.  I considered asking about it as a basic ability, but I think it would be fine to add as skills, such as a 30% chance to negate stun for the entire team, or 75% chance to negate stun on an individual creature.  Stun tends to be one of the most powerful abilities.  Calm is obviously as powerful, but much less common.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 11, 2015, 08:57:18 PM
Actually, calm reminds me of something else I want to bring up, and that's creatures that completely hose an entire strategy.

This may be another controversial opinion, but if a strategy is too strong, then that should be nerfed, not "fixing" it by introducing a creature that just completely screws the composition with no counterplay possible. Talking about things like Mutant Swampdwellers, Frenzy Ghouls, and yes, even Nightmare Mummies (if the magic system gets improved.) They just show up and say "lol, your composition is now useless, enjoy the stomping!" and proceed to destroy you. There's no creature that counters them, they just kill healers/tanks/whatever. Mercury Slimes and Volcanic Efreets do the same, except that they are countered...by one of the uncounterable "destroys X strategy" creatures.

I'd rather they simply not exist, though an alternative that would at least be tolerable is to have the debuffs immediately disappear as soon as the offending creature is killed. Right now Blight and Frenzy linger for a while after the creature is dead.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: crumplecup on May 11, 2015, 09:02:35 PM
I don't want to sound scornful, but isn't there a counter to hard counters?
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 11, 2015, 09:04:22 PM
Scorn doesn't cause already applied buffs/debuffs to disappear immediately. You scorn a Frenzy Ghoul, you're still afflicted by Wrath until it times out, same as if you killed him.

Edit: Not to mention only two creatures natively apply Scorn that I'm aware of...one of which only has a 50% chance to apply it, the other triggers it only when hit. I question if it's healthy at all to have creatures whose abilities utterly destroy things as ubiquitous as healing and tanking.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Noetherian on May 11, 2015, 09:06:39 PM
I don't want to sound scornful, but isn't there a counter to hard counters?

<laughs > ... well-played
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: VagrantSun on May 11, 2015, 11:57:30 PM
Scorn doesn't cause already applied buffs/debuffs to disappear immediately. You scorn a Frenzy Ghoul, you're still afflicted by Wrath until it times out, same as if you killed him.

Edit: Not to mention only two creatures natively apply Scorn that I'm aware of...one of which only has a 50% chance to apply it, the other triggers it only when hit. I question if it's healthy at all to have creatures whose abilities utterly destroy things as ubiquitous as healing and tanking.

The Pit Guard has a ~44% chance to inflict Scorn on hit, and Summon Wild Imps will duplicate its effect on any monster.

~*~

Hosers

On the contrary, I think hard counters are completely necessary. Your point about perfect defenders only stands so long as there isn't a Frenzy Ghoul on the other team, for example. Mutant Swampdweller, additionally, I don't count as a hard counter because Blight does not prevent healing from happening, and doesn't kill creatures after it inflicts proportionate damage, which means that Pit Wraith Dominator still gets its boost even against Swampwalker, and enemies still have to target and kill your creatures instead of autowinning.

Also, Scrolls of Mass Dispel will remove any detrimental status once the status creator is gone.

That said, Nightmare Mummies, I agree, are not good for the metagame. It's not so much what effect they have against creatures as what they do to the player; they nerf an entire class, making all but one of the Wizard's class perks useless, and that one an out-of-battle passive. I don't agree with punishing the player for picking an already tough-to-play class.

~*~

Luck Creatures and Builds

I agree completely that Vilify and Warp Reality threaten the usefulness of a dozen creatures easily, and require nerfing. Where every other stat debuff in the game is a percentage and recoverable from, only these two completely and outrageously tank a stat to effectively nothing.

~*~

Perfect Defenders

These aren't as bulletproof as you think they are. Stun knocks down your defense for a turn, Wrath prevents it entirely, and Grip/Snare can keep you indefinitely paralyzed. Damaging effects such as Enchantment / White Knuckles / Carrion Swarm don't care about your defenses at all; and Faith Hunter has a good chance to kill you outright for even trying.

I'm satisfied that they're balanced, given these counters, though the WDS is undeniably the strongest defense you can obtain in the game, and may need a minor nerf.

~*~

Status Creatures

I'm already nervous with how badly status has been nerfed in this game; it's got to be a valid alternative to damage, and the methods by which this is plausible are decreasing rapidly. Gravestorm + Electroheart does need nerfing, I admit, but Timebomb seems valid to me, given that it's effectively a random 2HKO that requires defending (lots of things will punish you for this).

~*~

Creatures that Need a Buff

Frozen Spirit: It's a cool concept, but creatures that defend and provoke are incredibly likely to keep defending and provoking, because they're built to do so. Frozen impedes neither of these things whatsoever, and only bothers you if for some reason you decide to have your tank punch things in the face.


Minotaurs in General: They're intended to get stronger from being punched in the face, but hybrid builds are unimpressive at best, and this means you have a damaged creature leaving off defense duty and exposing other, softer-bellied monsters to attack, so that it can . . . deal mild damage. Because you built it as a tank so that it could survive taking shots in the first place. There's a problem here.


Minion Monsters: Every single monster in the game that uses minions is slightly underpowered, bar the Blood Hound (due to its plethora of support) and the Lich King (Deathknights are basically SuperLeech, which is already a valid ability for the Bats). I've never had a time where I wanted to use a Mutant Seadweller, or Pit Guard, or Planetary Amaranth, or Mauler Fend. A small side benefit to make them more effective than "I casted a Summon spell" would make them more distinct.


Mutant Rotmongeror: Skeleton Cannoneer does literally everything better than this creature, and that is a big problem in terms of design.


Pestilient Smog: Infection and Disease now deal damage off of the inflictor's base Speed and Luck. This creature has base 6 Speed and base 10 Luck. It doesn't need to be attempting to inflict Infection and Disease anymore.


Priest of Light: This creature has a 40% chance to heal your party for a total of 105% health on its turn, distributed randomly and inequally. Ashwood Ent heals everyone for 20% on their turn, in a reliable and predictable manner that always works and grants 120% health over the length of a round (and gets better with turn-stealing shenanigans).


Red Storm: Stagger is cool, but with the crappy Attack of the Storms in general, you're not going to be doing anything worthwhile with it. The Storms in general need a damage-dealer species to make him more viable, or he needs a buff.


Winter Aspect: The Minotaur conundrum again - if this creature's ability boosts attack, what am I doing trying to draw fire?


Wildfire Efreet: Objectively worse than Dragon Soldier, now.


Carnage Antagonizer: A half-and-half chance to deal damage to an attacker based on a tank's dump stat. Minotaur conundrum!
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 12, 2015, 12:44:14 AM
Not looking to start an argument, but I do want to clarify a few things.

Hosers: There are two different design philosophies here. Yes, in the current game Frenzy Ghoul is necessary to create a hole in perfect defense set-ups. My argument is that if those set-ups weren't available, Frenzy Ghoul would not only be not necessary, but it'd be harmful to the game's balance. If I'm using a non-perfect defense set-up, you don't need Wrath to take down my Chaos Guard/Autumn Aspect/Troll King/Whatever tank, it just makes that creature completely useless for the first several rounds of the battle. (And yes, Blight is probably the lesser of the evils here compared to Wrath because Blight itself can't kill you. That said, in some ways I find it worse because you can't exactly turn off healing abilities, and it actively harms you while Wrath just prevents an action.) So the question is: should the game be based on radical abilities with hard counters, or more moderate abilities with soft counters? I prefer the latter because it makes the game much easier to balance, as seen by my next point...

Perfect Defenders: The problem, as I said in my first post, is that they invalidate the vast majority of the other tanks in the game. Do you ever see anyone talk about using a Chaos Guard tank, or an Autumn Aspect, or a Troll King, or a Dragon Guardian? It's always the same suspects every single time: Stronghold early game for perfect provoke, and then later most folks are either using Stronghold + WDS, a Cloak and Dagger WDS, or a Taunt Mummy Lord. Heck, the "why use X when Y does everything better?" question is especially relevant here. Why use a tank that boosts defense, when I can just use a Taunt Mummy Lord who reduces almost all of the same stuff that defense affects to one damage? Yes, there will be a few bizarre edge cases where another tank might have an edge, but nine times out of ten, why would you ever use a Dragon Guardian or Autumn Aspect over a Mummy Lord with Steadfast Resilience?

It's the problem when you have extreme abilities that act as absolute hard counters. Blood Dance and Death Beckons are effectively hard counters to direct attackers, so what happens to the creatures that soft counter the same?

Edit: After re-reading this morning some of my comments sounded more passive-aggressive than I intended, so I removed those bits. Sorry guys.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: VagrantSun on May 12, 2015, 01:36:19 AM
Alright, I can see your point then. There needs to be better game balance between the WDS/Shadowdancer combo and the rest of the tanks, but I feel like Mummy Lord, at least, is balanced due to its incredibly difficult-to-get status.

I still disagree with you about hosers, but that's likely a personal preference, because I think any creature whose ability prevents a strategy you don't even necessarily use (Pegasus never needs to defend/provoke, for example) is justified in having a powerful effect on that strategy.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Juncboks on May 12, 2015, 02:22:52 AM

~*~

Hosers

On the contrary, I think hard counters are completely necessary. Your point about perfect defenders only stands so long as there isn't a Frenzy Ghoul on the other team, for example. Mutant Swampdweller, additionally, I don't count as a hard counter because Blight does not prevent healing from happening, and doesn't kill creatures after it inflicts proportionate damage, which means that Pit Wraith Dominator still gets its boost even against Swampwalker, and enemies still have to target and kill your creatures instead of autowinning.

Also, Scrolls of Mass Dispel will remove any detrimental status once the status creator is gone.

That said, Nightmare Mummies, I agree, are not good for the metagame. It's not so much what effect they have against creatures as what they do to the player; they nerf an entire class, making all but one of the Wizard's class perks useless, and that one an out-of-battle passive. I don't agree with punishing the player for picking an already tough-to-play class.

~*~

Luck Creatures and Builds

I agree completely that Vilify and Warp Reality threaten the usefulness of a dozen creatures easily, and require nerfing. Where every other stat debuff in the game is a percentage and recoverable from, only these two completely and outrageously tank a stat to effectively nothing.

~*~

Perfect Defenders

These aren't as bulletproof as you think they are. Stun knocks down your defense for a turn, Wrath prevents it entirely, and Grip/Snare can keep you indefinitely paralyzed. Damaging effects such as Enchantment / White Knuckles / Carrion Swarm don't care about your defenses at all; and Faith Hunter has a good chance to kill you outright for even trying.

I'm satisfied that they're balanced, given these counters, though the WDS is undeniably the strongest defense you can obtain in the game, and may need a minor nerf.

~*~

Status Creatures

I'm already nervous with how badly status has been nerfed in this game; it's got to be a valid alternative to damage, and the methods by which this is plausible are decreasing rapidly. Gravestorm + Electroheart does need nerfing, I admit, but Timebomb seems valid to me, given that it's effectively a random 2HKO that requires defending (lots of things will punish you for this).

~*~

Creatures that Need a Buff

Frozen Spirit: It's a cool concept, but creatures that defend and provoke are incredibly likely to keep defending and provoking, because they're built to do so. Frozen impedes neither of these things whatsoever, and only bothers you if for some reason you decide to have your tank punch things in the face.


Minotaurs in General: They're intended to get stronger from being punched in the face, but hybrid builds are unimpressive at best, and this means you have a damaged creature leaving off defense duty and exposing other, softer-bellied monsters to attack, so that it can . . . deal mild damage. Because you built it as a tank so that it could survive taking shots in the first place. There's a problem here.


Minion Monsters: Every single monster in the game that uses minions is slightly underpowered, bar the Blood Hound (due to its plethora of support) and the Lich King (Deathknights are basically SuperLeech, which is already a valid ability for the Bats). I've never had a time where I wanted to use a Mutant Seadweller, or Pit Guard, or Planetary Amaranth, or Mauler Fend. A small side benefit to make them more effective than "I casted a Summon spell" would make them more distinct.


Mutant Rotmongeror: Skeleton Cannoneer does literally everything better than this creature, and that is a big problem in terms of design.


Pestilient Smog: Infection and Disease now deal damage off of the inflictor's base Speed and Luck. This creature has base 6 Speed and base 10 Luck. It doesn't need to be attempting to inflict Infection and Disease anymore.


Priest of Light: This creature has a 40% chance to heal your party for a total of 105% health on its turn, distributed randomly and inequally. Ashwood Ent heals everyone for 20% on their turn, in a reliable and predictable manner that always works and grants 120% health over the length of a round (and gets better with turn-stealing shenanigans).


Red Storm: Stagger is cool, but with the crappy Attack of the Storms in general, you're not going to be doing anything worthwhile with it. The Storms in general need a damage-dealer species to make him more viable, or he needs a buff.


Winter Aspect: The Minotaur conundrum again - if this creature's ability boosts attack, what am I doing trying to draw fire?


Wildfire Efreet: Objectively worse than Dragon Soldier, now.


Carnage Antagonizer: A half-and-half chance to deal damage to an attacker based on a tank's dump stat. Minotaur conundrum!

I know, it might seem lazy, but Vagrant quite excellently took the words out of my mouth on all accounts. In stead of spending everyone's time reading a rewording of this quote, I figured it'd be better to do it this way. Vagrantsun, I couldn't agree more. This is me saying that my opinion is as previously stated.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: jamosup on May 12, 2015, 03:56:21 AM
Alright, I can see your point then. There needs to be better game balance between the WDS/Shadowdancer combo and the rest of the tanks, but I feel like Mummy Lord, at least, is balanced due to its incredibly difficult-to-get status.

I still disagree with you about hosers, but that's likely a personal preference, because I think any creature whose ability prevents a strategy you don't even necessarily use (Pegasus never needs to defend/provoke, for example) is justified in having a powerful effect on that strategy.

I think the point he makes about hosers, at least with one subject, is that they counter -all- tanks and nerf them, rather than just the strongest ones, so you're nerfing something that's already outclassed. Pegasus is already a top tier tank, so avoiding the big counter puts it even higher up. I have no problem with them existing otherwise, though, but Wrath counters imperfect tanks as well as perfect ones. :P It's still not a very large issue since it's one high-tier monster out of hundreds and you can cleanse the ailment after you kill it, though.

I also disagree with a creature's balance being based on its difficulty to obtain. Higher tier/rarer creatures should have fancier/more complex abilities, but they should try to focus on balance between tier 1 and 30+powerspells. Otherwise high level teams become more samey. I think Mummy Lord should be disallowed to use Taunt, but possibly get a buff to its provoke redirection chance as compensation, so it isn't objectively better than any other defense-based tank by virtue of having essentially infinite defense. Defense piercing effects do break through, but all the other defense-stat tanks lose to that as well, so it evens out.

I agree with your other points, though, and strong strategies do need counters that exist in the game, as long as weak strategies aren't also caught in the line of fire. :P

Edit: A bit of clarification on the "difficulty to obtain" point: I think Zack mentioned in the past that the tiers aren't meant as a grading of strength, but a way to sort the monsters, for the most part. Simpler abilities tend to be gained earlier, as well, and more complex or unique ones come later. I'm fairly sure that the intent is that monsters from tier 1 are made to be able to compete with the final monsters you unlock, though a lot of the most impactful abilities do come later at this point in time. The "hard to get, but strong" effect comes from Nethers/Demons instead.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 12, 2015, 12:33:05 PM
Yeah, jamosup explained that bit better than I did. And I agree with him on difficulty to obtain not really mattering for balance reasons. All creatures should be equally viable, which is a pipe dream, but one that we can still aspire to.

Also, silly me, I suggested buffs or reworkings of several creatures but didn't offer suggestions on how to improve them. Off the top of my head:

Minotaurs

Since "get hit in the face and become more attack-focused" isn't really worthwhile, it's hard to keep with the minotaur's theme. I think, though, that the overlying idea in a flavor sense is playing with the minotaurs getting really, really angry, and I think we can still play with the fury/frustration angle. Some ideas for abilities, some of which obviously will need balance numbers or adjustments:

Seeing Red: When this creature deals damage but fails to kill an enemy with an attack, it gains Rage and acts again. (Rage acts as both a steroid and a limiter here, since if he misses with Rage he can't go again.)

Inescapable Fury: When an enemy creature dodges this creature's attack, this creature immediately deals X% of this creature's attack to the enemy.

Charging Bull: When this creature deals damage but fails to kill an enemy with an attack, it stuns the other creature in the enemy's column and deals X% of this creature's attack to it.

Winter Aspect

Simple improvement suggestions here: have the dodge debuff the enemy instead of buffing the Aspect. Perhaps decreasing enemy speed (thematic for winter) or attack, or inflicting frozen.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Kejal on May 12, 2015, 02:07:28 PM
In my opinion over-specialized hoser (Frenzy Ghoul, Nightmare Mummy, Bone Reaper) are bad design because they offer nothing to the player. They are mostly there for the AI to break up certain player compositions. Creatures like Frenzy Ghoul or Mutant Swampdweller are rarely used by the player because their abilities are only useful in very few encounters.

A better design would be stone/paper/scissors and soft counter with interesting side effects. For example, the Bone Reaper could be immune to death effects and move to the top of the action queue when such an effect occurs.

As for the meat of the thread:
Buffs:
Frost Phoenix - Breath of the Tundra is pitiful compared to Electroheart of the Thunderstruck Phoenix
Rancid Imling - Release the Panic is a poor imitation (no damage reduction) of Chrysaor's Ambition.

Nerf:
In my opinion at least Timebomb and Doom need to receive the same treatment as the other buffs. Charge is harder to acquire than Timebomb but was changed.
My suggestion would be
Timebomb: deal 400% of this creature's attack to a random enemy. If the target dies from the attack this creature looses its turn.
Doom: Deal damage equal to 200% of the inflictor's maximum health when the debuff expires. this makes it reasonable deadly within a wide realm range.

These are less prone to problems but still potentially problematic:
Haunt: vary chance to die based on the difference between inflictor's and inflicted luck with 35% as baseline and 5% and 65% as maxiumums for infinitly greater luck
Stone: Base chance to shatter on difference between attacking creatures attack and attacked creature's defense

Thunderstruck Phoenix - It should be closer to Frost Phoenix and Raven Ritualist. Currently it is an incredible powerful lockdown not even considering supercharging it with Cradle or any other resurrect.

Witch Doctor Sacrificer - limit damage reduction to the WDS max health
Mummy Lord - same

Pegasus - it is the only "automatic" taunt creature left after the Taunt change. I think it should only intercept when it is defending or provoking like any other tank.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: jamosup on May 12, 2015, 04:11:38 PM
Super-specialized hosers do have the niche of being useful for certain major sigils - the Lich Overseer sigil is essentially impossible without a Bone Reaper, and the Omnipotent Deity sigil would be extremely difficult without one or without out-statting it heavily. Nightmare Mummy is also sometimes used to turn off the spell system for people who don't want to deal with their team getting blown up randomly. I agree though that for the most part I wouldn't use a Frenzy Ghoul and to a lesser degree Bone Reaper for normal realm diving (though without a Reaper, any pair of omnipotent deities is an autowipe, so their ability still has merit).
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 12, 2015, 04:27:55 PM
Calamity is kind of OP right now anyway, at least in the hands of enemy formations. It was really over-tuned when it was moved away from % max health, since even on realm one an Omnipotent Deity can destroy an entire player team in one round from Calamity chaining off of itself.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: VagrantSun on May 12, 2015, 04:37:46 PM
I would suggest that the best way to deal with Nightmare Mummy is that it Silences five members of each team - that way if you need to cast a spell, you still can, and the enemy team isn't completely gimped on the spell front.

Imlers and Imlings are barely competitive as well. I managed to take a team around one such pairing to realm 42, but that's as deep as I could go, even with Calamity support and a perfect wall. In particular, the Imlings don't offer anything I would consider worthwhile, with the exception of Diamond Imling and Putrid Imling; rez effects and free turns will always find a way to be abusable.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Cephyric on May 12, 2015, 05:17:46 PM
Ive actually found calamity to be okay to match up against. It gives a prioritytarget for you to slow down / stun, and it falls off heavily in later realms aswell (My calamity wearing attackstacked Fallen Carnage with 40k attack does exactly nothing for me at realm 150).
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: jamosup on May 12, 2015, 05:38:24 PM
Ive actually found calamity to be okay to match up against. It gives a prioritytarget for you to slow down / stun, and it falls off heavily in later realms aswell (My calamity wearing attackstacked Fallen Carnage with 40k attack does exactly nothing for me at realm 150).
Calamity is pretty easy to deal with if there is one enemy with it, but if two appear at once, things get dicey. Will it proc if you kill them both with splash, at least?
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Respwner on May 12, 2015, 07:26:55 PM
Buff:
Hammer Lord, his ability is mostly useless since you might as well just use 1 slot on your damage dealers artifacts to get the rare enchant for proficiency.

One improvement is to make it so he gives the buff to all allies all the time, instead of only to one random on attack. (still bad)
Another way is to instead, every time he attacks, he gives a "stack" of proficiency to himself and the ally to his left (or right, or same column, so you can place him correctly). Makes it more reliable and  gives it more potential punch. ^^
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Holts on May 12, 2015, 10:54:04 PM
Buff:
Hammer Lord, his ability is mostly useless since you might as well just use 1 slot on your damage dealers artifacts to get the rare enchant for proficiency.

One improvement is to make it so he gives the buff to all allies all the time, instead of only to one random on attack. (still bad)
Another way is to instead, every time he attacks, he gives a "stack" of proficiency to himself and the ally to his left (or right, or same column, so you can place him correctly). Makes it more reliable and  gives it more potential punch. ^^

Agreed.  I used the smiths a ton, and when the Hammer Lord popped up as the final smith in the monster tiers, I was pretty excited until I read his ability.  He's definitely one of the weaker choices, sadly.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Kejal on May 13, 2015, 02:35:51 AM
I think he is only weak because Proficient enchant is a rare enchant and other legendary buffs are applied to everyone (splash, thrust, cleave). As Respwner said, it should buff the entire team (like Secular Haze). As a rule of thunb I think all legendary enchants should have a build up like Wolf Army and War Forged while rare enchants are provided to the whole team like Secular Haze.

Proficient itself is actually really good. When you have at least two enchants of either attack, luck or defense, Proficient as a third is at least equal value to a third stat enchant (or already better if your primary matches those enchants). I use it on all my stat artifacts.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 16, 2015, 06:52:27 PM
Brought up in the shoutbox by a few people, putting it here so it's not forgotten...

Pegasus could probably stand to get a nerf. Two things here:

1. Pegasus with Cradle to the Grave is another "perfect defense". In fact, it makes everything basically impossible to kill without indirect damage or a Bone Reaper.

2. Pegasus in general seems to be a better version of Granite Golems and Wall Giants. Yeah, it only intercepts on a killing blow...but that's usually the only attack that really matters. The Pegasus is the last of the "passive tanks" that can flawlessly tank without needing to provoke or defend, and it does it's job a lot better than the alternatives.

A few different suggested nerfs would involve either the Pegasus' only being able to use its ability on provoke/defend, or giving it only a chance to intercede on a killing blow instead of it being guaranteed. Both would also break the abusive Cradle interaction.
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Chumsie on May 23, 2015, 04:33:58 AM
I guess you could say that I'm late for the party. But I'm a Wizard, and Wizards are never late.

Classes:

Currently it seems like there's a decent balance going on between the Priest, Warlock, Necromancer and Druid classes. The Priest adds a ton of survivability to a team, although nobody ever uses the healing focused perks, Warlocks promote the ever-popular 1-turn-kill teams and spalsh builds and Druids save you the artifact slots usually spent on Topaz Paragons - which is pretty much considered one of the most useful creatures currently in the game - and the Necromancer gives you a great anti-magic ability and a boost to your chance to find the games most powerful items; pills.

Admittedly the Necromancer feels a bit behind the other 3 classes, but not by alot.

The Wizard, however, makes me... sad.

The problem with the Wizard class seems to be a three headed monster; the perks aren't particularly amazing, the class demand that you focus on spellcasting and spellcasting just isn't particularly benificial as of now and finally the spell-pool for Sorcery is slightly lackluster. Now, naturally the upcomming changes to the spellcasting system are going to provide a substastual buff to the Wizard (I hope), but I'm going to be commenting on the class as-is.

The primary benefits of the Wizard class is the perk Sorcery (25% chance to not consume a charge when casting a spell) aswell as Mania (50% of your Power Balance is added to your Spell Power) and finally the 25(?)% class bonus to spells of the appropriate school of magic; in this case that'd be sorcery. The problem is that Sorcery is outshined massively by the Disciple Occultist's Ephiphany ability (75%! chance on spell cast to not consume charges or mana), which effectively beats Sorcery by 50% in effectiveness, aswell as Brilliance with 25%, and that even if you max out Sorcery and use Disciple Occultists you're still going to be suffering horrible RNG and eventually run out of spells; effectively leaving you out of options as your team AND your class is built around magic.

Likewise there's the issue that while Mania does indeed increase your Spell Power, it honestly dosen't increase it by that much all things considered. You're going to have to maxx out two 25 point traits to gain the full benefit of it, it quickly gets outscaled on the deeper floors and unlike just plain Spell Power bonuses it dosen't turn into percentage scaling in the late game. Another issue is that the only class in the game that actively cares about Spell Power dosen't actually have access to that many spells within its class school of Magic which take advantage of Spell Power.

I suggest buffing Sorcery and Brilliance to 50-75% effectiveness, aswell as changing Dilligence (reduces Power Balance costs for using Shrines) into something along the lines of; You have a higher chance to find stronger Spell Scrolls. Maybe add a number of spells currently only avaniable through Power Spells to Bynine, namely the Scourge ones. All to promote consitency within the class.

Likewise I recommend moving the majority of "Mind"/"Luck" spells (Vertigo, Confusion, Mindstorm etc) currently in the Sorcery school to Chaos in return for moving the "Fire" spells (Firebolt, Fireball, Immolation Aura etc) to Sorcery. This would add more Spell Power spells to Sorcery, add more spells with a "chaotic" feel to Chaos and support the fire/burn theme found within Sorcery's creature-base. Sure, the Chaos Mage robes are reffered to as the "Pyromancer's Robes" by the game. But I honestly can't recall a single instance of anybody reffering to it as such; it's always Warlock, Sorcerer or Chaos Mage.

Another major issue with the magic system in its current form is that it often only takes your opponent 1(!) spell to completely demolish your team. Hence the prevelance of Nightmare Mummies and Topaz Paragons; to prevent enemy spellcasting. I suggest adding a number of anti-magic spells to the game in order to help promote spell casting and diversity in creature teams. For instance:

Pandimonium Shell: Chaos: The Pandimonium King is immune to Spell Damage, so...
Both yours and your opponents creatures are immune to spell damage.

Counterspell: Sorcery: Would probally make more sense as a Death Spell as Death has all the raw anti-magic.
Your opponents next spell fizzles.

Muffle: Death: Ghostly hand covering somebody's mouth?
Silences target creature. This spell dosen't consume a turn.

Utter Silence: Banshee wail, mayhaps?
Silences all enemy creatures for X turns.

And the list goes on. Another idea would be to give players some other way of increasing their Spell Power. Say, by finding rare staves and whatnot in the Realms that can be equibbed (consumed) by the player for a permanent, and somewhat considerable, Spell Power boost - 25/50/100?

Also, while we're at it. Dragon Soldier is a horrible early game creature, as it actively works against the extraction process and I can't help but feel like it would unecesarrily confuse new players.

Magic:

I think I've already dipped my toes in here, seeing how you can't talk Wizards without talking magic, and all. But I think it bears mentioning that a lot of spells could do with getting moved to a different school, for flavour reasons. And I really do think that anti-magic would go a long way to improve the game as it currently is. Especially if you can buy some of the more basic anti-magic at Bynine's.

Also, I still want a Magic Missile spell. Damnit.  ;D

Creatures:

I honestly don't think that hard-counters are bad design. In fact, they're quite the opposite. They serve as hard-counters to certain player strategies and add options to team building. Mutant Swampdweller lets Poison/Burn teams avoid getting insta-gipped by Mecurial Slimes and Volcanic Efreeti, Bone Reapers are amazing fits to aggressive teams if you can spare the slot, Nightmare Mummies-...

Well, Nightmare Mummies fall into an odd category. Thing is that its honestly not that powerful an effect, at all. Losing your spellcasting powers is a huge price to pay in order to combat enemy spellcasting. No, the problem with the Nightmare Mummy, aswell as the Topaz Paragon, is that it highlights what is probally the games two greatest weaknesses as of now; the way level scalling is handled and the magic system.

Sacrificing your spellcasting powers just isn't that high a price to pay if it helps you avoid getting insta-gipped by random AoE spells and all the other anti-magic creatures still give your opponent a decent chance to get that one cast of Planets, Snowfall or Mindstorm through; potentially killing you right away. And the prevelance of the Mummy shows this.

Had Siralim been a multiplayer game I'd have decried the Nightmare Mummy the second I saw it. In fact, I did just that during the 2.0 beta.

Some creatures that I feel deserve a bit of a do-over would be:

Minotaurs: For reasons stated by everybody else and their dog.

Creatures that inflict debuffs on hit - Maniacal Ghoul, Red Storm, Pit Worm Tunneler and so on: The vast majority of these guys are, for a lack of a better word; boring. And they don't really see play, ever. The exceptions to the rule seems to be creatures that inflict debuffs that other creatures work on. Namely Poison, Infection, Disease, Burn, Weak and Sleep. Maybe changing some of these creatures to interact in similar manners would make sense, some race support mayhaps? After all, people have made it perfectly clear that they love theme builds.

The Witch Doctors: Not so much a nerf or buff. I just don't get why they're not called Pygmy's instead.  8)

Harpy Torturer: I'm one of those lamewards who love build-around-me creatures and I really want to like this one, but she's just too restrictive and unreliable. Maybe increase the range of debuffs that she's into to include Blind/Cripple/Stun/Stagger/whatever would give her more of a spotlight? Come to think of it, harpies in general don't see that much play.

Non-Hound, non-Lich King, perma-pet creatures - Mutant Seacrawler, Mauler Fiend, Pit Guard etc: The minion buffs have proven themselves to be somewhat lackluster and sacrificing one ability slot just to gain one of them permanently isn't a particularly good deal.

Blood Reaper: Yeah, he's still not very good. The idea is cool, in theory, but it just dosen't seem to work out in practice.

Occultist Spellbinder: Clearly this creature would be better off if it switched its sprite with that of Occultist Disciple. No, I'm not just saying that because the Disciple has my favorite ability and the Spellbinder my favorite sprite. Shame on you for even suggesting it!
Title: Re: [Discussion] Buff/Nerf Thread!
Post by: Grakor456 on May 23, 2015, 12:27:29 PM
Likewise I recommend moving the majority of "Mind"/"Luck" spells (Vertigo, Confusion, Mindstorm etc) currently in the Sorcery school to Chaos in return for moving the "Fire" spells (Firebolt, Fireball, Immolation Aura etc) to Sorcery. This would add more Spell Power spells to Sorcery, add more spells with a "chaotic" feel to Chaos and support the fire/burn theme found within Sorcery's creature-base. Sure, the Chaos Mage robes are reffered to as the "Pyromancer's Robes" by the game. But I honestly can't recall a single instance of anybody reffering to it as such; it's always Warlock, Sorcerer or Chaos Mage.

One thing I will say is that Chaos still has a strong thematic reason to be fire-focused. Chaos creatures include Devils and other minions of hell, and fire just works with that theme. IMO, I'd rather see Slimes and Efreets switch places and have Efreets turn Chaos and Slimes turn Sorcery, since that seems to make a lot more sense to me. And Sorcery, being the domain of general magic itself, seems a lot more likely to have mind-influencing effects than what we see in Chaos' creature base.

Of course, this all ties into two relatively minor problems I have with the game...for one, the reasons for certain creatures being certain alignments isn't made clear at all (Why are Minotaurs Sorcery, of all things? WTF is a Pit Wraith and why is it Life?) And for two, there's no reason to really theme and specialize a party into one or two alignments. But those aren't really balance complaints, just oddities with the game itself.