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HP vs. Defense  (Read 8942 times)

Offline random_rolle

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #26 June 24, 2015, 12:28:14 PM
I did say it would need major rebalancing. But it still seems to me that pure hp > defense by a large margin. Only time i ever consider using defense gems is for penant reprisal / refraction or the like. If survival is the main concern i always go for hp.

Don't get me wrong, i love the game, just find it odd that defense is so weak. 

How about "extra" damage abilities, should they be mitigated? Those that add a secondary damage component after the attack. Those that scale of the initial damage work fine. Those that do not however maybe needs some sort of mitigation?

Offline Tinyboss

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #25 June 24, 2015, 11:46:39 AM
Yeah, I think I should have said "it seems odd at first". I definitely think it's the right way to handle it in the context of the rest of the game mechanics.
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Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #24 June 24, 2015, 11:45:29 AM
If Defense mitigated splash damage then Mortarsman would be the worst creature in the game. Halve your damage so that you can deal piddly amounts to all enemies? No thanks.

Offline Tinyboss

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #23 June 24, 2015, 09:21:40 AM
I do think it's a little odd that splash/cleave damage isn't mitigated by defense, but I've grown to love it. Figuring out how to use my midnight feast/splash Brim Smith to kill nether creatures from sigils without attacking them directly was a fun experience.
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Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #22 June 24, 2015, 09:18:06 AM
Zack's nerfed HP enchants since then, so it's balanced out a little more.

Offline random_rolle

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #21 June 24, 2015, 07:28:41 AM
Now this is a fairly old topic, but i am a newer player. I have to agree with Vagrant and consider this one of the biggest "flaws" of the game. The fact that defense feels useless. Way too much bypasses defenses entirely. I think that any splash/cleave etc damage should still be mitigated by defense, that in itself would give defense a much larger use right away. Atm the only use i see for defense is for reflected damage based on your defense. And even then its possible to argue that just having a much more durable tank with some other ability (like stun reflect) can still outweigh it.

Personally i think spells should fall into a class and be mitigated damagewise aswell. But in any case defense needs to matter more. Just as your defense matters very little, so does the enemies. Take sigils which usually have the one really tough guy. Your attack not enough? Use cleave/splash/thrust etc and hit the guy next to him.

IMHO all damage that is not %-age based should belong to a type/class and always be mitigated by defense. Obviously it would be a large undertaking to rebalance alot of abilites, but it would bring defense to a useful level. As it stands now, stacking health is just better.


Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #20 April 18, 2015, 09:17:30 PM
Precisely, Boks. If so many things didn't bypass Defense, I would love it. An even better balance would be if Sapphire Attunement, upon negating an attack's damage, also negated all other on-hit effects; immediately that would give me a reason to build a defense monster, and I seriously doubt it would effect the balance of deep-realm play because eventually all stats-based builds are overwhelmed.


Offline Juncboks

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #19 April 18, 2015, 05:52:05 PM
In the end, people can play however they want. I would like to say, however that it is far more optimal to use health armor and instead of buffing defense, use the five "reduce damage taken by X class" enchantments and more health buffs. You take 50% less damage from enemies always, as well as have the health to take the unmitigated damage that completely ignores defense.
That unmitigated damage is what really lowers the efficiency of defense verse health. I think that specifically, is what vagrant is trying to get at.
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Offline etgfrog

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #18 April 18, 2015, 03:53:36 PM
I would have to argue otherwise at this point, my initial tests shows that on average when using a taunt/provoking creature with the large shield(defense) will end battle with more % health left over then using armor(hp). This is with no healing involved. The numbers are also showing around 87% of damage that happens can be mitigated by defense. At this point it is starting to feel more like work then having fun playing a game, so I'll just leave it at that.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 04:51:07 PM by etgfrog »

Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #17 April 18, 2015, 10:03:13 AM
Shellbust is a spell that massively reduces your highest Defense and then deals 200% the amount reduced as damage. It regularly oneshots enemy Nethers and I specifically avoid building Defense in my Nethers because of its existence.

There are plenty of effects that reduce Max HP, no question. But if you have two creatures that are focused in Defense and Health, respectively, and they both get hit with Piercing Dragon Claws (reducing Max Health by 25%), the one that focused on Health still has more actual health. 75% of his health total is still more than 75% of the Defense creature's health total, and in fact it's probably considerably more.

I didn't actually know that health enchants were 50% stronger than defense enchants, but that's something that will become pretty handy down the road as you hit the hundreds of levels. But as regards your example:

Yes, 3 > 2. And as the ratio increases, the imbalance will grow.


Offline etgfrog

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #16 April 18, 2015, 09:13:55 AM
hm...I'm not familiar with shellbust. Regardless max hp is just as vulnerable to those you listed excluding the damage spells.

Anyways, I'll start actually putting numbers out there. The hp on creatures range from 27 - 52 with an average of 36, the defense ranges from 6 - 21 with an average of 16, there may be others outside of this range. Artifacts are generated at 3*player level for hp(armor) and 2*player level for all defense(heavy shield). Compare this to the average 36 hp and 16 defense on creatures. Since attack is a factor as well it tends to range from 19-42 with an average of 34. So lets look at it this way, at level 1 will +3 hp make more of a difference then +2 defense?

Hm...I guess to answer that question I'll need to actually take as generic of a party as possible and record down the amounts of incoming damage.

Offline Juncboks

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #15 April 18, 2015, 06:39:05 AM
I have to she with vagrantsun and clarify. It's not that defense can't be useful in some situations. However, in a much larger majority and over all, health buffing and stacking is by far superior to the capabilities that defense puts on the table. I just have enchants that reduce all damage by half and attack on health to my tank, who already has good defense naturally. Budding it in any way would be a waste compared to stacking more health instead.
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Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #14 April 18, 2015, 05:12:59 AM
My point is that Defense does nothing against percent damage, status, speed, damage spells, or Shellbust, and that the stat itself is vulnerable to defense-lowering spells and the menagerie of creatures that target Defense, such as:

Abyss Banshee
Anguish Banshee
Diabolic Commander
Dragon Revenant
Glutinous Slime
Mutant Bonescraper
Pit Worm Tunneller
Spitting Pit Worm
Thunder Storm


If you don't stack Defense, then none of these enemies do anything you have to care about. If you lose 20% of 10 Defense, you have lost nothing worth worry, while if you lose 20% of 1000 Defense, you're suddenly taking 200 more damage to your Health that you did not choose to buff. You can have 0 Defense and not care; but if you have 0 Health, you're dead. Defense becomes an additional concern that you have to worry about in battle, because suddenly all the creatures and spells I just mentioned become relevant and do deleterious things to your ability to survive punishment, instead of being little more than warm bodies and turn wasters for the other team.

~*~

Sapphire Attunement is not a selling point of Defense. It removes Speed scaling and minimum damage, but these are not the factors that contribute to Tank creature death - it makes your defenders better at resisting things they already are good at, while doing nothing against spells or percentage damage or defense debuffing.

Here's my point: Sapphire Attunement does not actually improve your defense value. If you're already taking minimum damage, then you don't care about the ability to eliminate it, because it's literally minimal; and if you're not, and you're taking significant amounts of damage - and thus in a situation where you actually need an equalizer - all Sapphire gives you is a tiny damage resistance to the fraction caused by Speed. If you're going to focus on defense, you'd be better off equipping Pristine Dragon Armor, or Battle Born, or something that meaningfully increases your ability to not die in a scenario where that is an actual threat.

~*~


I don't dispute that, in certain situations, Defense can be useful, but the vast majority of the time, this is its quandary:


Defense exists only to reduce damage to your health.

But since there are so many things that bypass, mitigate, or debuff Defense, and you don't actually need Defense to be alive, why not just add more health and be better off for all those awkward situations?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 05:14:38 AM by VagrantSun »

Offline etgfrog

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #13 April 18, 2015, 01:46:04 AM
So because non percent special damage is uneffected by defense its worthless as a stat? That logic seems a bit off to me. Currently from what I've seen, what makes defense irrelevant is the heavy use of the pegesas and witch doctor sacrificer. Splash does next to no damage to the rest of your party if you have a high defense creature with taunt, even more so with the sapphire attunement. The game does value all defense to be higher then max hp for good reason, you will end up seeing less damage total over the course of a floor if you was to use a large shield vs using armor as an artifact.

Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #12 April 17, 2015, 05:18:20 PM
Nah.

Look, (.85)200 is an absolute higher value than 100(.85), correct?

So when you take into account effects that do unmodified damage, like the Raptor and Spider Occultists' damage bonuses, or the Death Crafter ability, or any kind of splash - that higher HP value will leave you less vulnerable than defense, because defense will do nothing to prevent that damage, while more HP will, surprisingly, leave you with more HP.

Example: if you're fighting a creature with 10K defense and 100 health, and you have a level 1 Raptor Occultist and 200 power balance, it is absolutely irrelevant how much defense that creature has, because the Raptor Occultist deals damage that isn't affected by stats. You will kill that creature if you hit it, while if it had over 200 HP, it would live.


Similarly, if you have more HP, Mend gives you more health. 10% of a bigger number > 10% of a lower number.


In neither of the above situations does Defense help you in any way, while more Max HP does.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 05:20:08 PM by VagrantSun »