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HP vs. Defense  (Read 8941 times)

Offline radfordblue

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #11 April 17, 2015, 05:11:21 PM
Vagrant,

Your points 1 and 5 are circular. If high defense and high HP *are* equal strategies, then each hit point is "worth more" at high defense. So 85% of high-defense 100hp might be just as good as 85% of low-defense 200hp.

This would be true if Defense mitigated all forms of damage, but it doesn't. It only partially mitigates normal attacks. It doesn't mitigate the portion of normal attack damage from Speed, or indirect damage (Splash, Cleave, Thrust, etc.), or bonus damage (Spider Occultist's Enchantment, Raptor Occultist's Thaumaturgy, etc.), or spell damage, or "% Maximum Health" based damage, or debuff damage (Burn, Poison, Bleed, etc.).

Also, there are other ways to mitigate normal attack damage that are more reliable than Defense, like Holy Defiance or a Pegasus with the Cradle to Grave ability. Defense is just too situational to be useful unless you're dealing with a Defense-specific ability like the Amaranthine's Incandescence ability. Even then I'm not sure it's worth it.

Offline creidieki

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #10 April 17, 2015, 05:06:06 PM
Yes, and I'm saying that points 1 and 5 don't support that argument well, because they only work if you already assume it's correct.

Online Zack

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #9 April 17, 2015, 05:05:39 PM
I think he means that if you neglect defense, the value of health decreases, and therefore both stats rely on each other in some way.
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Offline VagrantSun

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #8 April 17, 2015, 05:04:14 PM
The thread topic is about how they aren't equal strategies, bro dawg.  ;D

Offline creidieki

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #7 April 17, 2015, 04:43:58 PM
Vagrant,

Your points 1 and 5 are circular. If high defense and high HP *are* equal strategies, then each hit point is "worth more" at high defense. So 85% of high-defense 100hp might be just as good as 85% of low-defense 200hp.

Offline etgfrog

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #6 April 17, 2015, 08:37:13 AM
Yea, my bad, it was sapphire attunement. To be fair pretty much all the attunement abilities are pretty strong, but that might just be my view of it.

Offline radfordblue

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #5 April 17, 2015, 07:59:24 AM
Saphire topaz skill removes the whole thing of speed giving extra damage.

That's true, but it also takes up one of your precious ability slots. You only get 12, and I've never found the Sapphire Attunement ability useful enough to justify taking it. Topaz Attunement, on the other hand, is awesome. Having your whole team go first is incredibly valuable, especially on higher realms where enemies would always go first otherwise because of their much higher Speed.

Offline etgfrog

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #4 April 17, 2015, 05:27:13 AM
Saphire topaz skill removes the whole thing of speed giving extra damage.

Offline radfordblue

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #3 April 11, 2015, 10:24:32 PM
I totally agree. When I'm making a tank Nether like a Stronghold or Pegasus or something, I do almost all health (ruby) enchantments. Maybe some speed/luck (topaz) to reduce the proportion of mortal blows it will receive. The damage mitigation from Defense just isn't nearly as reliable as having more health.

Offline Juncboks

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Re: HP vs. Defense
Reply #2 April 11, 2015, 05:56:14 PM
Everything you said checks out for me. I realized this dilemma pretty early on and have definitely neglected to invest in defense, instead, my tanks use tons of hp and go for the enchants that reduce X class's damage received; since it scales and can't be hurt by defense nerfing abilities.
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Offline VagrantSun

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HP vs. Defense
Reply #1 April 11, 2015, 04:53:00 PM
I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that it is almost always better to add to HP than defense, for the following reasons:

(1)  Defense does nothing against damaging status or percent damage effects, while having a higher HP does. 85% of 200 is 170, which is better than 85% of 100 (85, obviously).

(2)  Defense doesn't mitigate damage derived from speed, while if you have a huge HP count, you don't really care.

(3)  The various "Remove X% of Defense" effects really don't matter when your Defense is about 10 anyways.

(4)  Enemy blasting spells are derived from spellpower, which has no relation at all to your creature's various defenses that I've noticed. If you have high max health you can shrug off that Armageddon / Planets / Stasis Sword that much easier.

(5)  Mend becomes much more effective with high max HP.

(6)  Shellbust.

(7)  As rare as they are, the Leak and Pandemonium Drain effects steal percentages of your Defense, and if it's crappy, then they won't get anything worthwhile out of it.
~*~

Now, I have seen some negatives. Damage-dependent effects like Splash/Thrust/Cleave get better when they hit an health-maxed creature and splash over to a defense-dependent one, but I almost see that as a further argument against focusing on defense. Likewise, the Pandemonium Strike effect does Spider Occultist-style scaling damage off of Chaos Defense, but only the Pandemonium King has that effect.

Really, the only problem I can see that healing spells are much more effective on Defense-maxed creatures than health-maxed ones, because the amount of healing is a static number.

Can anyone check my math on this?