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final post/critique of S3 in its present state  (Read 1051 times)

Offline robertleva

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Re: final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #6 August 03, 2018, 12:03:28 AM
I think what made S1 the best in the series was the actual challenge involved in creating a broken team. It took a lot more time and lots of dungeon crawling to find the materials you needed. Then comes S2...the series went off the rails here with the autocasting, gene strength and locking out extractions until you breed the crittter. New game plus fixed some of this, but it was a real let down.

S3 I put in between the two other games. It's way better than S2, but still lacks the challenge and draw that S1 has. S3 is kind of like magical fairy land where the balance comes because every mage class is over powered. Class swap on spell gems is an AWFUL idea and it just makes all your creatures basically the same class. Oh yeah and auto casting is back from S2, cuz we need that.

Breeding is (currently) a lot better and a solid improvement over S2. Artifacts system is the best yet. The extraction needs to be fully unlocked like in S1, but its still way better than s2.

...but the REAL PROBLEM with S3 is this: POWER CREEP!

In S3 you have tons more traits and, just like the mage classes, the only way to balance them is to make them all either OP or useless. In S1 it took a long time to assemble a crew that could tackle infinite realms. In S3 you can make one before you even finish the tutorial missions. Between the power creep on mage perks, and power creep on 700+ traits the challenge isnt discovering making an infinite team, its making one that can end a battle in less than 5 seconds every time.

There just too many ways to break the game at early levels, yes Im looking at you autocasting sorc mage.


All of that said, if you get more than 100 hours out of a $20 game youve gotten insanely high value. I found very little challenge in S3 once the initial bugs were fixed, but I still played a couple hundred hours of it. Cant really complain.

« Last Edit: August 03, 2018, 12:12:26 AM by robertleva »

Offline PeregrinTook

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Re: final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #5 July 24, 2018, 07:25:24 AM

Personally, it sounds like a lot of the things you're concerned about are more design features, working as designed - they're unlikely to be changed too terribly.


I would agree with Baudouin's phrasing that you're undergoing some 'burnout' from playing this a lot. I agree that the grind is at the core of the game, and ultimately you will reach a point where achievements are the only 'meaningful' way of rewarding the player.

But OP definitely has a point if certain things that could be balanced better, and hopefully that will be addressed in future builds.

I sincerely hope you don't give up on the series as a whole. Thylacine has proven time and time again that they are capable of being inventive and unique in game design, and I believe they will continue to build on their vision for Siralim 3 as the ultimate, never-tiresome grindfest.

Offline wolfgirl5000

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Re: final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #4 July 08, 2018, 03:08:46 PM

my personal conclusion is that no amount of updates or changes can fix Siralim (in my eyes) if the core systems remain, so I won't be returning

I loved Darkest Dungeon but when I last played (Shieldbreaker update), making an OP team for each dungeon was easy if you really knew what you're doing. Used lots of Houndmasters & Occultists. I read about the newest balance changes but having beaten the Darkest Dungeon once, I feel like I'm done with the game and its gameplay loop.

It's summer anyway, time to face the biggest, most destructive boss in the universe: the sun.

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #3 July 08, 2018, 02:14:46 PM
@wolfgirl

You and I we discussed the state of art a little bit in your earlier threads.
First things first: I do not think that you are whining, in contrary you just state your opinion in an honestly and understandable way - this is actually amazing and shows how much you care.

As Baudouin I do not have your experience with the game, I play a lvl 272 Death Mage and at the best I can beat a 435% CJ. That your creature level is over 9000 is awesome.

I'd also recommend putting the game down until we have version 1.0 - now we are at 0.17.0, that means the game is 17% complete and no meaningful balance has been implemented yet.
Trust me after we have asynchronous online battles the end game gets more interesting. I know asynchronous play from Dragons Dogma and Xenoblade X, it is utterly cool.

If you want a real challenging dungeon crawler where every battle is extremely meaningful, rewarding and hard and you have to manage your party carefully but still have the freedom for some fancy yet not overpowered builds then please try Darkest Dungeon with DLC + some free class mods - you will not be disappointed.
Afterwards Siralim 3 will be complete and you can try it again - if you are still disappointed, well, nothing lost,  C'est la vie  ;)

Again thank you, you stated some uneasy truths nobody else spoke of.

Offline Baudouin

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Re: final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #2 July 08, 2018, 11:52:53 AM
This isn't really related to your post; I don't feel I'm far enough in the game to comment on your feedback, which seems valid, even if I don't agree.
And - to be honest, I'm probably not the best person to comment on the gameplay even if I were; I'm ultra-casual, and far more interested in making fun dumb teams (and unlocking MIMICS, I swear, someone's gotta do it) then the nitty-gritty of what makes a good grind. A lot of what you don't care for I rather liked, at least at the moment - but, that's not what I'm here to discuss.

Burnout is a terribly real thing, and though these are definitely the kind of games made to be played for hundreds of hours, it's hard not to experience a little of it after that long.

I think - and you'll probably be doing this, anyway - you might want to put the game down, and come back in a year or so.
Clear out your backlog, read a few books you've been meaning to catch up on (if that's your jam!) and check back when it's out of Early Access.
Personally, it sounds like a lot of the things you're concerned about are more design features, working as designed - they're unlikely to be changed too terribly.

But...

We're at version what, 0.10.9? A lot can happen, and change.
And even if you revisit it and find it's still not to your liking, not challenging in the ways you care for or engaging in the manner you craved - it might help you enjoy what you liked best about it, even if only once more.

Either way, I'd like to thank you for putting so much thought into your feedback.
Again - I can't comment on it, but taking the time and effort to lay out your thoughts is difficult; hopefully, working through them helped, somewhat.

Offline wolfgirl5000

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final post/critique of S3 in its present state
Reply #1 July 08, 2018, 06:35:19 AM
preface:

I'm writing from a place of love for the series, and have played each game hundreds of hours. I tried my hardest to like S3 but gave up at last as I don't think it can become the challenging, mindful dungeon crawler I dream of.

I quit at sorcery mage level ~4500, creatures lvl 9000 across the board, itherian realm ~400, playing with CJ maxed on everything except 2/3 extra traits, was a 1200% bonus I think. so my points are assuming max difficulty, not an even playing (stat) field.


team was a lazy, unoptimized auto casting fox nether with pimped out homing arrow, chaos bolt, glacier, annihilation etc. + the usual int & damage boosts, team had resurrection stuff & some failsafes, 3 x stricken (afflict enemies with 2 random debuffs at start, really OP imo) and hammersmith artifact buff share. was careful what I put on creatures and artifacts in case of decays. used runs in conjunction with buffs/debuffs. I died sometimes, but rarely enough that it wasn't worth the time to find a solution, as I couldn't read the combat log anyways on winning as autocaster or after death.


critique points:

1. it's ALL about the start of battle/first turn. all options/traits to act first by action queue manipulation are unreliable rng, and that won't work if bad luck means certain death (all other rng/x% chance to blabla traits are iffy as well. if you need them to win, you cannot depend on chance. if you don't need them to win, why even have them?).

so your reliable options are autocasting/attacking, debuffing/disabling the enemy team so badly they can't act/kill you, or some setup where you don't mind/benefit from dying/taking damage. if turn 2 ever comes up, something went wrong. and since you need to fight a million battles, you don't want each one to last longer than 10 seconds anyways. your biggest enemy are the game's loading times.


2. S3 set out to simplify and streamline systems, but that went wrong. breeding was a pain before in S3, but now that you need primed creatures, if I understand correctly, you actually have to use shitty creatures to prime them before you can get the benefit.

artifact creation was unattractive as those found in the wild were much superior, aind since 3 spell slots is the best enchantment for most builds, you can trash the artifact if you miss that roll. combing through tons of dropped artifacts to single the potential keepers out isn't fun either. in the interest of balance, streamlining and fixing the 7% spell gem buff traits, just do away with extra spell gems slots entirely. it's too strong a concept/build.

cores/recipes: if you diligently summon all new creatures, the breeding interface takes close to a minute to load eventually. still you have to constantly go to library recipes, cores, summoned creatures, it's a huge pain in the ass and waiting for loading times to get just one higher level tier creature. the extraction system is more frustrating than ever, since even after 200h+ of gameplay, I couldn't extract from most of the creatures due to lacking knowledge level or some other reason. frustrating and unfun for players, just let me go wild and don't restrict me every single step.

next up, talismans: I had 1.5 pages worth, quite a few beyond level 100, and the grind is insanely boring. 3 upgrades at a time means 25+ itherian realms (can do the early ones with rune powder).

those new/repeat bosses: no challenge here either. boring scanning every map for an altar, boring guardians. the bosses traits themselves are cool, building teams around those would be fun.

Siralim does need streamlining and doing away with needless system. Refocus on that goal, it's currently going in the wrong direction.


3. changing classes on spell gems is insanely overpowered/generic: why even have classes if death can cast resurrection, life can cast wormrot etc. coupled with all the autocasting etc. traits, being able to load creatures up with all the best damage/healing spells is way too strong.

4. this game requires so much information for building a good team, like by how much a trait or spell enhances your stats, what your chance for x triggering is, how multiplicators of stats & damage stack, in what order certain things trigger etc. but players get none of that info. optimizing your team can only be done by trial and error/reloading.


I could go on with my constructive & whiny criticisms, but my point is that it seems to me like EA updates aren't fixing core issues, just adding more mindless grind/balancing things on the surface instead of addressing the roots.

when I asked myself: why am I doing another 10 itherian realms, what's the meaningful progression I'm looking towards? there's nothing. achievements aren't real gameplay incentives, they're crutches. add real progression, give me a rare core or material or something meaningful when I reach a certain goal, that's the carrot on the stick MMO design is built on.

alright, I'm done. Siralim was an awesome series but in the interest of growing as a developer I suggest from the bottom of my heart to move on because you can't make it anything more than what it is based on its core systems, and reprogramming those isn't worth the effort or time.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2018, 06:37:51 AM by wolfgirl5000 »