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Implementing a hoser for percentage damage  (Read 6172 times)

Offline Kindread

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #41 May 01, 2015, 04:40:30 AM
I don't think it should be tied to level itself - you can't increase your level "past your level", but things like pills, nethers, and artifacts can increase your other stats higher than normal for their level. Using level would be a bit stifling.

Isn't the idea to make stats and levels matter though ? So you still get some effectiveness out of these skills that aren't based on stats (maybe there can be a cap on how much can be deducted), but you need to mix in stat based skills and decent stats as well... Or instead of level we could base it on stats or opposing stats.

I would agree that some of the % skills could be given this treatment, but the problem is that you could no longer build around them if all do current hp, since none of them can kill anything. I  would rather dots and the Resin (Troll Arsonist) ability among others, actually be able to kill stuff rather than just do %  of current hp in damage. There are already some that offers current hp in damage anyways (even 20% current hp to all!).

You could still use current HP based skills to do sizable up front damage, but to land the killing blow you still have to have decent enough Attack to remove the last bit of HP. Could also make the skill fire first, then the damage from the attack itself, to make it a bit more effective.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 04:46:40 AM by Kindread »

Offline Respwner

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #40 April 30, 2015, 04:00:23 PM
Apologies, I didn't have time to read all the responses, but one simple/alternative solution to the % damage stuff would be to make them % of CURRENT health rather than MAX health.

Example: Poison deals 3% of current health damage per stack per turn.

It would still be strong, but would suffer from diminishing returns, and you're not going to kill something at 10% hp if it has 1,000,000 max health unless your creatures have the stats to do it. This makes stats relevant for % damage still.

The other option obviously would be everything being stat based rather than % based.

I would agree that some of the % skills could be given this treatment, but the problem is that you could no longer build around them if all do current hp, since none of them can kill anything. I  would rather dots and the Resin (Troll Arsonist) ability among others, actually be able to kill stuff rather than just do %  of current hp in damage. There are already some that offers current hp in damage anyways (even 20% current hp to all!).

Offline jamosup

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #39 April 30, 2015, 03:39:56 PM
Another suggestion for the ability based on the targets %MaxHP, maybe only allow the full effect if the target is 20% above you or your creature's level, and then start decreasing the damage after that ? if you/your creature is level 150, they should only do full ability damage to creatures up to level 180. if they are 21% above  (level 182), then subtract 1 percent from the effective damage, if they are 22% above (level 183) subtract 2%, etc etc. The numbers are just examples, the threshold and the rate of decline can be whatever is appropriate.
I don't think it should be tied to level itself - you can't increase your level "past your level", but things like pills, nethers, and artifacts can increase your other stats higher than normal for their level. Using level would be a bit stifling.

Offline Kindread

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #38 April 30, 2015, 02:20:49 PM
Another suggestion for the ability based on the targets %MaxHP, maybe only allow the full effect if the target is 20% above you or your creature's level, and then start decreasing the damage after that ? if you/your creature is level 150, they should only do full ability damage to creatures up to level 180. if they are 21% above  (level 182), then subtract 1 percent from the effective damage, if they are 22% above (level 183) subtract 2%, etc etc. The numbers are just examples, the threshold and the rate of decline can be whatever is appropriate.

Offline winsomniak

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #37 April 30, 2015, 01:04:48 PM
Apologies, I didn't have time to read all the responses, but one simple/alternative solution to the % damage stuff would be to make them % of CURRENT health rather than MAX health.

Example: Poison deals 3% of current health damage per stack per turn.

It would still be strong, but would suffer from diminishing returns, and you're not going to kill something at 10% hp if it has 1,000,000 max health unless your creatures have the stats to do it. This makes stats relevant for % damage still.

The other option obviously would be everything being stat based rather than % based.
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Offline Respwner

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #36 April 28, 2015, 10:52:38 PM
Here is my suggestion for % skills, sorry for the wall of text, but I think there are some good ones mixed in with the not so good ones at least:


As suggested make the damage scale with YOUR creatures stats (or difference between yours and the enemies stats) and remove the cap from damage over time so that they can kill weak enemies faster. (no point in capping if it scales from your stats)

Feel free to tweak whatever, Im just here to help the brainstorming with what I think might be some relatively easy implementations when it comes to the explanations needed for skills and such, while still keeping them somewhat unique. Just ask if any clarification is needed / wanted ^^


Poison:
You could make poison stack flat, as in it does X% of stat(s) of choice for this demon (or average) per turn for 5 turns.
Further applications from any poisoner extends the duration to last until 5 rounds from last application and simply adds all the damage together for the total "per turn damage".

Here different sources contributes different amounts of damage to the total dot, but is easy to understand.
Instead of the adds 1-3 or 5 stacks and so on, you simply change the X% of stat (or range: X-Y%) between creatures.


Fire:
You could make burns start somewhat the same, X% of stat(s) of choice, but instead of adding together like poison it only increases its damage when it deals damage to the burned creature (first round = X, second round = X*3, third round = X*6, fourth round = X*10 (or something like it, not an exponential increase, but it increases by something higher than the previous round)). If you have multiple creatures that can burn, the highest damage applied is chosen / kept when reapplied.
Lasts for 3 rounds unless reapplied and every reapplication increases the duration by one round.

This makes a somewhat slower playstyle, but one that ramps up harder than poison at the end unless you have many poisoners. While still requiring additional activity to make it ramp up (so you cant just apply and forget).


Bleed:
1: Simply makes the target(s) bleed for X% of original damage inflicted with an attack.
2: Does damage based on the difference in stat(s) between you and the enemy.
3: A combination where the damage is based on the original attack, but scale it with a multiplier (for example: (your speed / enemy speed) * X * original attack )

Durataion and stacking:
Bleeds could either not stack at all, just highest damage chosen and duration refreshed.

You could make each bleed applied last for 2 turns, so that if you make a target bleed first round for X damage every round for 2 rounds, then the second round you make him bleed for Y damage for another 2 rounds you would end up like: 1: X damage this turn, 2: X+Y damage this turn, 3: Y damage this turn since the first bleed is no longer active, 4: Y damage this turn, 5: No active bleeds.

Last possibility I came up with right now, but I think that it might actually fit bleeding very nicely, would be to make all bleed damage stack like in the poison example, but have "unlimited" duration, instead total (current) bleed damage is reduced by 50% every time it does damage to the target. This way bleeds need to be fresh to deal out heavy damage, and scale sort of opposite of the burn example.

I will keep all the suggestions I wrote, but I realy like the last one alot better then the first two among the duration and stacking suggestions for bleeds.


Other % based skills:

Infection and disease, no scaling or stacking, simply % stat damage per turn. (opposite scaling with current % health, as is the case currently, just change it to flat increase)
Suffocate, target cannot cast spells, take % stat based damage per turn (less than infection and disease).
Doom, target takes a huge amount of stat scaled damage at the end of the buff.
Dying, change this skill so it instead makes the target take additional damage form all damage over time effects, or the duration of all damage over time effects is doubled (halves bleed decay rate).
Jinx, make it scale of damage taken by enemy instead of damage dealt to enemy.

All % chance to kill skills -> chance to crit for X% more damage or chance to add stat based bonus damage.
In regard to the poison instant kills: deal X% of current damage per turn or total damage to be recieved over the 5 rounds total. (i know one is there already, but you can make them work somewhat differently ;) )

Resin: make the damage equal % of attack, health or a combination of those.

The skill that deals 10% max hp damage to all creatures when you use a spell that uses up a turn: Change it so it instead scales off of your characters spellpower, you want this on a spellcasting focused mage anyways!



That is everything I could think of right now. Hope some of it will prove useful, good night from Europe, lol. :P

Edit: Some typos.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2015, 10:59:40 PM by Respwner »

Offline etgfrog

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #35 April 19, 2015, 01:03:10 PM
My input regarding this is to cap direct% damage to the creature's stat, for example troll arsonist could be capped at its attack(or maybe its speed). As to solve the debuff problems, seperate the debuffs to fall under the 5 creature types as followed:
Life: Calm, Fear, Jinx, Sap, Stun, Weak, Wrath
Death: Blight, Doom, Dying, Haunt, Pumpkin
Sorcery: Blind, Burn, Frozen, Sleep, Silence, Stone
Nature: Bleed, Disarmed, Cripple, Grip, Snared, Suffocate
Chaos: Confused, Diseased, Infection, Poison, Scorn, Wane

Then there is a set of creatures that makes all creatures(enemies included) immune to said effects. Leak for example I didn't list because it is only caused by the abyssal leech ability. Scorn and Blight I would almost question if they should be allowed to be immune to though, on the other hand they can be inflicted by mulitple sources.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:39:54 PM by etgfrog »

Offline crumplecup

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #34 April 15, 2015, 12:00:41 AM
For really short battles fight against an enemy Skeletal Mortarsman and Bone Reaper on realm 400+ :D

By now it is no secret that I love on-death and near-death abilities.  So I have been thinking about a contingency plan for bone reapers for a while.

I didn't have a chance to try out the Corrupted Phoenix right away (it actually took 187 power rituals to gather 3 cores...), but you are right I like the Final Breath ability a lot.  That in combination with Topaz Attunement, and I can almost counter this wicked combo.  The trick is using a Wyvern Sonicscreecher equipped with a Hurricane Enhancer instead of silencing all spells.  Even if the spell fizzles, the wyvern still silences everybody.  With my black mage, I also have a 25% to fizzle spells, and crucially I can cast spells.  I know, vulgar, but I would live to scoop up the loot.

Master shapeshifters actually become dangerous the better my party becomes.  If you add nether demons, the shapeshifters can inherit more abilities.  No possible combo of abilities is more dangerous than the one I am currently rocking, imho, so of course a pack of master shapeshifters is the worst possible foe!

Even if they wipe me out, though, I like being able to resolve battles quickly, win or lose.  I like this to be possible perhaps using some risky all-in strategy.  For instance, in my loot-gathering build, I remove the topaz ring so the enemy always goes first.  This speeds up the battle, as I either defend or provoke 6 times for 95% of battles.  Bone Reaper/SM combos are so rare that I would rather die quickly and hop back to a new realm.

Offline Juncboks

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #33 April 14, 2015, 06:21:10 PM
I know it was a joke. Doesn't mean I don't have a grassland realm spell waiting for me to get to realm 419 :P
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Offline Kejal

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #32 April 14, 2015, 05:47:46 PM
Actually you can get to 400 with a debuff team pretty easily. Witch Doctor Sacrificer and taunting Necropolis form the core with Silence, Eternal Rest, Calamity, Topaz Attunement, Everything Gone and Subversion to speed things up and to hose the hoser since Mercurial Slime is no longer an issue. Only hard counter are Frenzy Ghoul and unmitigated damage and even those are winnable if your Calamity is not taken out. The team is even fast, generally killing enemies during their first round.

Offline jamosup

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #31 April 14, 2015, 05:42:16 PM
I know people have gotten over 400 with ability teams, but not debuff teams. Unless I'm wrong?

To be honest I'm trying to get all the creatures and build one of those crazy teams just so that I can get to realm 420 grassland before it becomes impossible to go that high. (Lol, the puns) but yeah, almost feel bad for enjoying the scenic route instead of deep realm rushing.

I am fairly sure they are all ability teams. I agree completely that ability outdoes debuffs currently, but debuffs also outdo stats as well. I figure that it would be possible to do the same with debuffs, though it would take more effort. A team with heavy revival along with a strong poison inflictor and Bile Slime would probably be able to semi-consistently beat encounters of any level, though they may require hound tails to do so. They would also be completely stonewalled by enemies immune to poison. So it's definitely not perfect and would probably be awkward to use, but it's still possible people could descend indefinitely with it.

While it is mostly overpowered in combination with %-based damage, Holy Defiance could have a "overkill" function sort of like Diablo 3's Force Armor rune in that if the attack exceeds your maximum health by a large margin (like 500%) it bypasses the ability and kills the creature anyway. Some effects still ignore Holy Defiance, though, so this may not be necessary or it may overcomplicate the talent - a rework may work, as well, like making damage above a certain % of your maximum health have diminishing returns, though that would be incredibly hard to express how it works to the player.

Offline Zack

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #30 April 14, 2015, 05:36:25 PM
I know people have gotten over 400 with ability teams, but not debuff teams. Unless I'm wrong?

To be honest I'm trying to get all the creatures and build one of those crazy teams just so that I can get to realm 420 grassland before it becomes impossible to go that high. (Lol, the puns) but yeah, almost feel bad for enjoying the scenic route instead of deep realm rushing.

That 420 thing was an April Fool's joke from crumplecup.
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Offline jamosup

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #29 April 14, 2015, 05:35:29 PM
To be honest, all I seem to get from this is that you don't want certain strategies that you don't use to be viable. Saying, "we don't want you to be able to be a defensive tank team that tries to just stay alive while you deal small percent damage each turn." Cause that's a viable strategy. Why is it wrong for people to have well synergistic teams? Especially when there are so many ways to counter them.

I know I probably sound a bit whiny; I apologize. I rarely use debuff teams as it is. Still, I'm pretty worried about all this will simply crush out the viability of shy play style that doesn't conform to a certain structure. I really like the own variability in how you can play this game and I don't see nerfing (because it would be) debuffs to make Stat based players feel better. Debuff teams don't really go crazy far like ability teams do; they tend to be like side flavor to speed up other strategies.
I still want that to work, and hopefully work in a more satisfying way. At more sane realm levels, I think the debuffs should be outputting -more- damage. I do agree with you that builds based on this aren't perfect and have many enemies, even single creature types appearing like mercurial slime that essentially cause an automatic wipe/flee. They're not as strong as the dominant ability builds, but they still have the "infinity" potential when not countered; if the void is created, it could fill it.

I apologize myself - I probably come off as trying to attack your way of play. I mean nothing personal with this, and I'm not trying to argue for the sake of arguing.  I think there's room to allow a "defend and wait out the DoT"s playstyle, even making your DoT damage scale off defense with certain abilities - the gameplay of turtling out the enemies to die isn't the issue for me at all, more that currently if the enemy doesn't counter you you can pretty much win at any realm level. I wouldn't be surprised if these setups can lose half their battles due to counters, though; but I don't know how to balance a setup that wins 50% of battles regardless of enemy strength. This is assuming your party's defense is disregarding enemy stats somehow; like with Holy Defiance or certain creature abilities. If that isn't possible, then having it be a percentage isn't as problematic, as you have to have the defense on your creatures to survive long enough.

Offline Juncboks

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #28 April 14, 2015, 05:27:22 PM
I know people have gotten over 400 with ability teams, but not debuff teams. Unless I'm wrong?

To be honest I'm trying to get all the creatures and build one of those crazy teams just so that I can get to realm 420 grassland before it becomes impossible to go that high. (Lol, the puns) but yeah, almost feel bad for enjoying the scenic route instead of deep realm rushing.
It's not the name of the bread, but the skill in its making, that determines its quality.

Offline Zack

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Re: Implementing a hoser for percentage damage
Reply #27 April 14, 2015, 05:20:44 PM
To be honest, all I seem to get from this is that you don't want certain strategies that you don't use to be viable. Saying, "we don't want you to be able to be a defensive tank team that tries to just stay alive while you deal small percent damage each turn." Cause that's a viable strategy. Why is it wrong for people to have well synergistic teams? Especially when there are so many ways to counter them.

That's completely fine when you're fighting at a realm level you belong on. But a lot of people are climbing to realm level 400+ very quickly because this strategy works even when their enemies are 1000x their level. It shouldn't be that easy, and it goes against the way the game was designed.

Rest assured that having a full debuff or damage-over-time team will still be perfectly viable - it just won't be the overwhelmingly best option anymore.
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