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Observations from playing the game.  (Read 2258 times)

Offline Bazoril

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Re: Observations from playing the game.
Reply #5 May 29, 2014, 03:16:57 PM
I know you already had other ideas to solve some of these issues, I'm just telling you the issues that stood out for me. I tried to address everything in my post by adding a suggestion because it's not very nice to just give negative feedback and i prefer to be constructive. I also addressed these now because it will take longer to notice these issues as you make improvements (because the game is getting more fun every update for sure) to the game but they will still be there.

Most if not all of this sounds like a good idea, just keep in mind the way i had planned my suggestions was to make late game more involved. For example the reason why i was so detailed with artifact items is because managing inventory starts to quickly become a chore. Taking them away (making them more rare to find) in their current form and causing the player to have to craft them seems more interesting, crafting quickly gets expensive of course and is much too random currently (especially compared to random items, there is just no point.)

Basically more involvement, more time to have fun both making items and playing the game without having to sort through items. I was trying to tie any area i felt needed changed anyway in a way that made them more involved late game. The excess of normal artifacts is my biggest concern outside of the lack of endgame progression in general.

The other thing is i don't think we really need rituals added for features already existing unless you can tie them into a constant progression system or allowing you cool things like seeing unique ares (such as a boss area with a temple and sacrificial altar, these kind of areas could be hand crafted) or change them so that rituals enhance a feature either temporarily or permanently. Most of the current setup does not seem designed with rituals in mind and to use such features without changes... I don't know how i feel about that. I considered boss sigils being a ritual but it feels like a band-aid fix.

And yep i have the pocket dumpling as well, it's why I've never mentioned consumables.

As far as my references to monster breeding it was used as just that, a reference. For example you could take one particle from an existing monster of the same species and mix it with two random monsters of the same species instead of 3 random to have a strength modifier for stats or trait from the owned parent. Or you could just use ritual items to change the monster in some way at birth, such as extra strength on level up or acidic teeth that shave a slight amount of defense (like a minor shell burst on attack)

You don't want two monsters "breeding", i agree it doesn't work... You want this to be tied in to summoning somehow. I do feel monsters summoned could have a system to make them more unique and something that keeps players tinkering and experimenting with their monsters.

As for spellbooks they could be tied to monsters, each monster could only learn so many (if any, I'm looking at you Mr dumb as bricks berserker!) as they level up and the spells they could learn might be specific. This would make lineup choices more intricate and keep you from spamming an infinite spell on each creature. It could also add a form of exhaustion to the monster (limited spell points per level for their spells for example) This could involve things like nether monsters or the new addition you were mentioning.

The last thing i forgot to suggest is i would like to see other places in the world besides the castle, maybe you could rarely find things like a village when adventuring and be able to travel there by choice after that or while exploring a forest or other realms you can find special dungeons and such.

Offline Zack

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Re: Observations from playing the game.
Reply #4 May 29, 2014, 12:21:30 PM
The current implementation allows you to revive your creatures in battle using spells or abilities. As long as they're not dead at the end of battle, they won't be gone forever.

I'll also probably add Resurrection spell scrolls to Bynine's shop for this mode. There will also be a new unique artifact called Ankh of Reincarnation. It has no stats but grants the creature the Reincarnation ability which brings it back to life when it dies, then the artifact breaks. They can be purchased from Bynine as well.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 12:56:42 PM by Zack »
Designer and Programmer of Siralim and The Negative. Follow us on: Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Offline jamosup

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Re: Observations from playing the game.
Reply #3 May 29, 2014, 12:19:02 PM
I had actually thought of the "creature-perma death" mode on occasion when playing the game myself, though it might need an adjustment. It feels to me the game is balanced around having frequent deaths in encounters, usually one even if I'm doing  well due to how fast enemies can focus down or even oneshot one of your monsters; I'm not sure if an immediate death on HP reaching 0 will work due to how easy it is for monsters to die before you get a turn to help them. I was wondering if there would be a way to make it more like, "if you are wiped out, some or all of your monsters are killed", to make it a middle ground, or at least give you a chance to ressurect monsters if you have a scroll for it - possibly making the scrolls rarer in this mode. It's understandable if too much programming has already been done, though! And I may just be playing too little on the defense, heh :P

Offline Zack

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Re: Observations from playing the game.
Reply #2 May 29, 2014, 10:59:21 AM
First of all, thank you so much for taking the time to leave such elaborate feedback. I really appreciate that! I hope my response isn't too scattered and is reasonably easy to understand. I am just going to respond to your points in the order that you wrote them.

In response to the inventory system being unwieldy:
Several things will help with that. First, in a recent patch, quills were nerfed and the number of charges that drop on spell scrolls was reduced drastically. This will force players to continue equipping new scrolls rather than renewing old ones, which will cut down on scroll clutter. In addition, a filtering system will be implemented so that you can easily choose only the type of items you want to view. And if you haven't already received a Pocket Dumpling from Licktorr in the Throne Room, that'll help to chew up a lot of consumable items as well.

It is intentional that you find a lot of "normal" artifacts. However, it is not intentional that unique artifacts are so common and overpowered. That will be addressed soon.

In response to the castle design being sparse: this will be addressed soon as well.

Pandemonium Tokens are receiving some huge changes for the next update. I have removed a lot of the most devastating effects of using them and nearly tripled the number of events that can happen. Exalted Emblems will also be a bit more rare.

Spellcrafting is planned for a large content update sometime after release. The system will actually have a lot of the things you mentioned. Players will receive materials through various methods such as salvaging and disenchanting artifacts, finding them in chests, etc. Each method of loot acquisition will drop different types of materials. The player will craft scrolls that they can name, choose a graphical effect for, and modify the spell's effects using these materials. I'm also kicking around the idea of having some kind of elaborate sidequest which allows players to convert their scrolls into a book, which has unlimited charges of the spell but also has some sort of limitation, such as increased mana cost or a limit to the number of times it can be cast each battle. The exact details of the "book" system are yet to be determined.

Monster breeding as we know it from DWM simply doesn't work with this game. However, I have a really awesome system planned that will give you new ways to empower your creatures and change them entirely. I don't want to spoil anything but I will say that it's the next step beyond "Major Sigils" and ties into a LOT of your suggestions you made in this post. It'll provide a challenging alternative to the arena for late-game content. To that end, I am also going to allow Nethers into the arena in the next update.

I'm tossing around the idea of a "personality" or "trait" system where each creature is summoned with a random trait that affects its stat growth slightly. I'm still working out the ideas on how to implement such a system without it being too convoluted and dull, but know that it is definitely a possibility.

Unique artifacts obtained from Major Sigils are going to have some negative drawbacks associated with them since they're the most common uniques in the game. This will also give me room to add a new tier of unique artifacts that are much more difficult to obtain with the new system I described earlier in this post. Plus, it forces players to choose between their creature gaining a new ability or increasing their stats. Additionally, what do you think about requiring an "activation ritual" before a Major Sigil can be used? It would just be a short ritual comparable to a Power Spell.

Your post gave me some good ideas about artifact crafting. I'll work on that a bit in the near future too.

A few additional notes:
- In the next update, most (if not all) rituals will cost Power in addition to their current costs.
- I am adding two new game modes in the next update: Creature Perma-Death (which is self-explanitory) and Creature Randomization Mode. The latter randomizes the creatures that are unlocked with each creature tier upgrade. When combined with other modes, these modes should make the game feel a lot more dynamic and should give incentive for players to play the game on multiple different files. I'm also working on more ways to differentiate the classes from each other, and several of these ideas also involve the use of rituals.

Once again, thanks for taking the time to play the game and type all of these suggestions up. Rest assured that there will be plenty of large content patches after the game is released.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 01:34:12 PM by Zack »
Designer and Programmer of Siralim and The Negative. Follow us on: Facebook | Twitter | YouTube

Offline Bazoril

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Observations from playing the game.
Reply #1 May 28, 2014, 10:21:45 PM
I'm going to list my impressions of various game elements that might need addressed a bit. There may have been some changes to address some of this since this is based on v7

1) Inventory is unwieldy, items breed in your pocket from chests. I currently have 60 pages of items and it's just not something that can be managed over the long term pleasantly unless you keep up on it (okay my blacksmith was inaccessible for a good amount of time as well so that did not help.)

2) The player has to search down unique Artifacts (as well as coins, boss sigils etc etc) in their inventory. Regular weapons mixed in are a huge issue here i think.

3) Equipment vs the amount of monsters you actually need to equip is a bit crazy.

4) Normal equipment is nearly useless to sell (for several reasons.)

(i have not sought out any artifact drops yet in v9 to experiment so i may need to rethink the next three a bit. but it makes sense to include them anyway considering my item feedback)

5) (good) Unique artifacts eliminate any reason (as far as i can tell) to even care about basic equipment and they drop frequently. Normal equipment just is not a reward at that point. (and even trying to get them comparable is a huge resource sink)

6) Unique artifacts are easy to obtain and imbalance the game even if you fight the actual boss with level 1 monsters on the first dungeon level.

7) Scaling on items (unique artifacts included) doesn't seem to be too big a deal and very quickly items just start looking the same.

8) Castle decoration is kind of sparse, Design is repetitive kind of like early dungeon gen. Starting small and expanding would be cool also

9) Stables could be able to be expanded to both give you more upgrade options and allow you to have a smaller stable to start with (a huge empty stable wasn't interesting or exciting whereas the prospect of progressing from a tiny stable to a huge stable loaded with monsters is a bit more interesting)

10) I've never had an issue with power level afaik and it always seems topped off or close to it. I'm not even sure if it's supposed to be important.

11) Boss sigils are extremely common to the point they are quickly not rewarding, the same thing for pandemonium coins and exalted emblems.

12) Loot distribution could be more varied.

13) Dungeon exploration does not feel like you are progressing, since the game is meant to be infinite it would probably be good to tie this into monster "breeding", stable size, blacksmith and enchanting as well as other upgrades.

14) It seems like it's incredibly easy to get most of the monsters and while i like nether eggs it seems like it is just endless grinding at the moment. They have little use since they are not allowed into the arena (the only end game content besides more of the same) and they take so long.

15) There are not enough variations in continued use for rituals.



On loot issues.

Instead of getting frequent equipment drops they should be changed to material drops to craft equipment.

Chests should drop the low to mid quality resources and items

Mission rewards should be mid to high quality

Special chests should be high to legendary quality (items like special nether eggs and materials.)

Item crafting will require materials to craft that modify the item crafted, there could be a nether egg equivalent to crafted items and this would expand ritual use.

Creatures just requiring spirit particles i believe is rather uninteresting, they could instead require new resources now as well. This gives you the ability to adjust the current resources to instead be used as currency for the new materials.

Instead of finding various scrolls you could find resources such as inks and parchment that is used to craft scrolls. Again the most powerful scrolls could require a ritual (and still be random of course but your guaranteed to get a powerful scroll).

This system requires you to be more involved in the items you obtain and adds more to the game which i believe would be fun if done properly. This also allows you to adjust the amount of things like coins or similar items to be special rewards instead of being extremely common.




On monsters.

Well part of the appeal with monster hunting games is finding a new area that unlocks new monsters, the way this game is set up does not allow this... Monster breeding is essentially non existent (nether eggs is the only area we have this)

I do believe some form of monster "breeding" should exist in the general practice of things, I'm not sure how this should be done though.

Level limits could be included but that leaves just an added grind for no reason by itself

Creature abilities (such as spells for example... or minor perks similar to the creature traits) could be added which would enable you to add variables to creatures.

Unique resources similar to what has been suggested in item crafting could be added as well that would affect the outcome.

One thing i miss is items do not really affect creature growth but given that in DQM it was to help get to the stat caps and there is not a stat cap... stat potential makes more sense to be determined on birth or from the nether egg system.


On unique artifacts.

They should be special rewards, they may be better off being replaced by normal artifacts (a ritual version.) and unique artifacts being more like stuff like a ring equipment or extremely rare crafting materials. item to give both types of items a use. Unique weapon's should be incredibly rare and should be rewards from bosses found in special boss lairs.

On bosses.

Well there is no progression rewards from them, like you don't meet a boss on level 50 who you need to beat to go further. The summon items are extremely common and should be rarer as well. This is another thing that you could implement further ritual use in as well.

I feel bosses should be more of a treat to find as well as something more tied to progression/dungeon generation... and that for item summon-able bosses that the process should be more involved. Also the player could be required to go through a boss mysterious realm to fight them.

The rewards could also be more varied than just artifacts (actually variation would be nice but unique artifacts are still perfect for the major bosses, that's a unique reward... minor boss rewards just are pretty minor.... Sure this makes sense with the current system sure since they are so common but that just isn't interesting.)

Let's take this scenario, i find a special level in the dungeon at random with unique generation and find the boss, i defeat the boss and have a chance to obtain resources found nowhere else (not as chests or quest rewards) such as resources to make amazing monsters, special nether eggs, special weapon crafting materials as well as extremely rare scroll materials as well as a chance to obtain a major boss sigil that allows me to go to an area containing a major boss.

This adds a lot of anticipation for boss fights due to the wide variability in surprises you can get.

On rituals

I have already added a great deal of suggestions for rituals in other areas but current rituals mostly feel as if they have an arbitrary design, it would be nice to feel if they had more of a progression than the current system.

Your ritual counter increases as you level but you quickly outgrow needing this and it just becomes something of an afterthought that is just nether egg fodder.

If rituals had a more progress oriented nature even after you reach the point of having all castle add-on's i feel this would greatly enhance this flaw, actively being able to use more powerful item creation rituals, as well as an active influence your ability to obtain more powerful or varied creatures and all sorts of things.



I'm not sure how well thought out this is and i feel like i am missing addressing quite a few areas of the game but in general i feel late game only gives you a few things to do. I do feel like we need some feature such as DQM2's key system or disgaea's item world to add more content but i hesitate to suggest anything particular.