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Dodge needs to be revised  (Read 580 times)

Offline Psylisa

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #7 June 18, 2018, 11:15:23 AM
The reason I am posting this is because Nature mages have a perk that increases dodge chance.

With so many traits affecting enemy dodge negatively, and no good traits that affects it positively, Nature players are effectively making their teams worse by increasing their dodge chance in exchange of something that stacking Defense does better.
So don't take the perk if it doesn't jive with your strategy?

I don't take Luminesce on Life Mage because it's terrible. Chaos Mages often forgo Chaos Magic. Death Mages will sometimes avoid Necromancy, since it overwrites your innate trait.

Offline Gringar

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #6 June 18, 2018, 09:59:17 AM
He's not talking about dodging as a way to avoid powerful attacks. Obviously if you dodge some powerful attacks that's great. If you dodge a bunch of attacks against a Nemesis pack full of Clutchers that is ... less great. They will punish your dodges.

That is Leahn's thought as I understand it. There is more support for punishing dodges than there is for actually benefiting from a dodge. Keep in mind that the negated damage can also be accomplished with added defense or reducing enemy damage. With the wide array of dodge punishing options there are, adding a dodge chance without also adding some good effect on to it is a liability. And the dodge benefit traits right now just aren't that attractive.

Offline Dirtyhands

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #5 June 17, 2018, 06:44:38 AM
I completely agree with Visio.

Sometimes it seems jinxed that Nemesis dodge 6 attacks in a row. Well, Siralim is a fine numbers game.
If dodge mechanics interfere with your strategy than counter it with i. e. Rupture  + Uyi Rune

I also believe that Speed influences dodge chance and there a countless interesting ways to drain speed from the enemy.

The best what the devs could do is a little fine tuning but its is unlikely that ist changes the dodge chance practically.

Offline Visio

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #4 June 16, 2018, 11:01:45 AM
self dodge chance is pretty cool actually. there are several mechanics that will most likely hit you with melee attacks. Playrs dodge chance per se is working fine. Chaos mage has perks on critical chance and critical damage which are almost as much situational. I just dont touch em. Since about the most powerful (not combat wise) perk in the game is resource gain one anyway and it takes about 11k levels to fully max i wouldnt worry much about minor perks that consume about 1.25k levels to fully max. I think every class has at least 1-2 situational and some undesirable perks.
Tbh im amused that perks are so few. Was hoping gods may grant perks later or there are other ingame means to unlock em but still no hints on it. We ll see.
But back to the topic - dodge is an ok mechanic, from players side its pretty decent. Perkwise its still decend. Definitely more universal then crit chance/damage. To put points in or not is up to you. For instance i doubt values of health/defense as well, but they are definitely solid.

SO i dont think any revision is needed. If any is needed is some dodge suppression mechanic based on stat difference. OR maybe not.

Offline leahnnovash

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #3 June 16, 2018, 10:01:15 AM
The reason I am posting this is because Nature mages have a perk that increases dodge chance.

With so many traits affecting enemy dodge negatively, and no good traits that affects it positively, Nature players are effectively making their teams worse by increasing their dodge chance in exchange of something that stacking Defense does better.

Offline Visio

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Re: Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #2 June 16, 2018, 08:49:16 AM
EDIT: on a flipside i just realized that you can effectively use speed as a dumpstat indeed, take a perk that makes your AQ attack based, never give speed tomes to anyone but aoe trigger DD, take a perk that deals aoe on enemy dodge, get beginning of the battle traits: someone who attacks every enemy once if its higher in AQ or someone that attacks 3 times, pretty much an autokill group, especially with chaos/magmadiver.
Im even revising my build now :P

Maybe dodge as a trigger mechanic is kinda weak, but as a defensive method its pretty good actually. Besides it comes mostly naturally if you build for speed to be on top of AQ, so its even better, actually when Agile group missed 95-100% of its hits while being 30-40% levels above me id say dodge is awesome. Maybe building for defense will give more consistent results ALSO lowering spell damage, but it will only do so (heck if we d have spelldodge trait(s) speed would be godly). While speed gives you AQ priority, dodge, crit. Sadly swiftcasting trait of raven [email protected]!#$master was a lil nerfed in comparision with S2 where speed was like everything :P

For arena im always trying to have some thing that would trigger on enemies dodge, indeed triggering on self dodge, unless a winter aspect, is pretty crappy. Winter on arena is pretty bad as well though.
So your main point is that we lack triggers on dodge and those are in existence are bad? Yep
Though i dont see/wanna know a viable maxdodge trigger build (some automaxspeed statbuilder with triggers on dodge?) all players are different.

What *I* dont like about dodge mechanics at all:
Guaranteed/separate chances to dodge. 50%. 30% Crazy. Makes attacks even more useless, stats independent. SO you either ignore attacks and go for spells/non spell like 90% of ppl (or i think so), or do some enemies cant dodge mechanic.
The chance to dodge of enemies. I think if they have 10x lower speed they should have zero chance to dodge. heck even 2x lower speed should move dodge to some unbelievable lowball value like 1-5%.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 09:03:05 AM by Visio »

Offline leahnnovash

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Dodge needs to be revised
Reply #1 June 16, 2018, 01:14:42 AM
Right now, Dodge is likely the worst thing that can happen to your creatures. It is almost like a permanent debuff on your team. Well, on the enemy team too, but who cares about them?

According to the incomplete list of traits on the wiki, there are currently 25 traits that affect or are affected by dodge.

* 7 of them increases you dodge chance in any form (Agility Aura, Dexterity Aura, Frenzy, Call of the Harvest, Independence, Under Stress, Urdox Harbinger).
* 1 of them deals with preventing dodge (Wretchedness).
* 1 of them doubles dodge effects (Psychic Dance). This is both a blessing and a curse, as bad things will happen twice too.
* 7 of them hurt the creature when it dodges (Contagion, Lash, Pain Flurry, Seize, Smack Around, Sticky Fingers, Vehemence).
* 2 of them hurt the ENTIRE team when any of the creatures dodge (Brain Zap, Menacing Dragon Fangs).
* 7 of them do something beneficial to your creature when it dodges (Call of Evolution, Call of the Aspect, Call of the Bloom, Call of the Solstice, Call of the Tundra, Call of Time, Frost Breath). Let's review all of them.

6 of those belong to the Aspect race:

- Call of Evolution casts ONE spell for 0 mana. There are a handful of other traits that can do the same, without having to deal with the double RNG aspect of this trait. Still, if you get lucky and manage to dodge multiple times you may get a better outcome than the other traits. Still, with so many different ways of throwing one dozen spells at once that do not rely on RNG to trigger the autocast, it is hard to consider a reason to build around this one. Since it does not rely on Aspect race count, you can run this Aspect alone in your team or as an Artifact trait, so it is more or less ok. To put salt in the wound, it is the best or second best trait in the list.

- Call of the Aspect is arguably the best trait on the list. Although it still relies on RNG to trigger, the fact that it raises ALL stats by 20%, for ALL Aspects (so potentially your entire team at once), with Psychic Dance and Nature Perk that increases stat gains, it means you could potentially raise all stats of your entire team by 80% every time this Aspect dodges. The main drawback is the fact that it only raises stats of Aspects so you must run an Aspect team and the other Aspects are, well, rendered useless because they need to be dodging to do something, and if THEY are dodging, then Seasons is not dodging, and if Seasons is not dodging, then nobody's stats are being raised. This is the opposite of synergy.

- Call of the Bloom is one of the worst healing traits in the game since it recovers only 30% of MISSING health. It is an AoE nerfed version of Sand Giant's Rapid Regeneration, which means it will never overheal, or even heal for a decent amount. It is easily supplanted by Sense of Purpose trait that does about the same thing, except better.

- Call of the Solstice is an worsened version of Paradigm.

- Call of the Tundra is an worsened version of Call of Evolution. It has all of its drawbacks, and none of the advantages since now you can't even pick the spell.

- Call of Time is an ok trait. The main problem with it is that Barriers ain't really that useful unless you are running a Life Mage so you can use them better and if you ARE a Life Mage then you already have a perk that gives your creatures a Barrier that does not rely on RNG.

The 7th is an Yeti's Frozen debuff to which the bosses are immune, and has a 50% chance. You have at least two other traits in the game that have an AoE Frozen debuff at 100% chance (Breath of the Dying, No Sudden Movement), three single target ones with 100% chance (Brain Freeze, Cold Like War, Rime), another AoE at 50% chance that does NOT rely on RNG to trigger (Ice Nova) and one Start of Battle one that affects half the enemy team at 100% chance (Winter Has Come). Like with Call of Evolution, it is hard to justify building around this trait when you have so many better options at hand with none of the drawbacks. Ultimately, though, building around the Frozen debuff means you will need another team to deal with bosses, which makes this trait non-end game viable, and it is the ONLY beneficial non-Aspect dodge trait.

While I am aware that some other dodge traits may exist that I am not aware of, I'd say dodging is in bad shape right now. Because right now the best way of taking advantage of dodge is running a low speed anti-dodge team, and wreck the enemy team when THEY dodge.